posted 03-11- 07:11 AM               

Case in point.

4 fw190 with bombs bombing a target with around 8 or so small targets. Flak, Fuel trucks and some other stuff.

Its begin defended by some allied fighters. Can't remember what kind.

So what happens? DO the FWs attack and bomber target? Well some do and some don't some get into it with the allied fighters. It ends up that i drop my bombs and take out more then half the targets myself. So i'm all happy. While i'm doing my mission (the allied planes weren't a target in the mission) the other planes in my unit take out all the allied fighters. At this point i THINK most or all of us have dropped our bombs. I check whats left for targets. A fuel truck and somthing else. SO what does the rest of my team do? QUIT thats right no mission won yet and they just up and leave.

"we took out the allied fighters we done here."

done? DONE??????

the allied fighters weren't even a target. The ground objects were the target.
So everyone quits to lobby and i take 2 straffing runs and FINISH THE FUCKING JOB.

Then and only then the mission won text shows up. and I go land. Of course i land at a friendly airbase. Just so I can actually get in the next game. Cause no one ever landed after a mission in ww2 NAW that never happened.

Anyway what i'm trying to say.
When you and 3 other guys take off for a sweep or bombing run or anything. when ever you are part of a unit larger then yourself. WAIT UP. Wait for the rest of your unit to get airborn and form up.

In the war would you have just charged ahead and left the other 3 FW190s a couple klicks behind? and charged into the battle against 4 spits? Nope i don't think so. and it sure ain't realistic online.

Same with bombers. When i'm the first to take off i do a loop or wide turn to form up in the middle of the pack. so its at least somewhat together.
Does the person furthest out cut back throttle and wait? NOPE.
Would you have taken off by yourself in your lone bomber with out waiting for the rest of your unit in ww2? NOPE you would have waited up and got close or you would have died.

So DO your mission. Cover your bombers and stay together in a unit.

And if you have a bombing mission and your in fighters or fighter bombers. BOMB YOUR TARGET. Don't dog fight. your there to take out your target. not fight the fighters.

How pissed would your commander be if you came home and said that 2 of the 5 that left were shot down fighting some fighters and no one hit target?

Oh yeah one more thing

If there is 2 lancs and 4 spits coming to get your base or what ever. GO AFTER THE LANCS.
or at least devide and half get the bombers and half the fighter protection.

It doesn't matter if you take out all the fighters if the bombers still hit target. Specialy if it was your field.

What would you rather report?

Sir we took out the attacking bombers and one fighter and saved the base or the manufaturing plane (bombers worth probly more then 5xs as much as any fighters to the enemy and at least 5 guys)

Or sir we failed to defend the bombers target but we got all the fighters. and they wen't home with 3 more experienced bombers crews with more confidence and a hell of alot of money in bombers.

Think about that next time your fly your realistic sim.

posted 03-11- 07:27 AM               

Play the part you picked in the mission.

Siggi me and mad dog quit out of missions that are just 4 FW190s against 4 Spits.

or even better the oh so realistic 3 P38s against guess WHAT? 3 p38s.

posted 03-11- 08:00 AM               

The problem is dogfighting in SDOE is so fun some people do not want to try anything else.

And sometimes you want to try out things online like you've designed a new mission and you want to test before playing it "seriously".

That's what the lobby's for: explaining what people want. Sometimes we have to accept other people's choices because we are not that much to play online and we cannot afford to say "this is the realistic lobby, go play Quake" and kick them. That would reduce the number of online players.

posted 03-11- 08:17 AM               

I guess i'll just ask and find something else to do when everyone feels like playing airquake.

posted 03-11- 08:52 AM               

Remember that 4 P38s vs 4 Bf109g6's i made when i updated Pete's 109. That was a great mission. I built that mission from the ground up and ever drew it out on paper to see how it would work. Thats how you make a great mission. Take your time and think everything possable out come.

If a mission is not historicly accurate then don't make it. We have a ton of planes now from all sorts of time periods. I think it's safe to say we could have some really good historicly accurate online missions. The captured P38 mission rocks. Very creative. We also need stuff like this. You know, we could make planes for this. It's not hard to make a plane all it's own, we could make a p38x and use it for captured missions and have a geramn paint scheme on it. just so everyone can see the planes.

If something like this would get started then we wouldn't have problems anymore. i personally am with spanky on this. I don't like to join Online missions to find out the mission is 4 P51's vs 4 P51's. I've had some really kick ass missions with like the 109E vs Spit Ia or the 109F vs Spit V. things like that rock.

We need to make a page listing the best and worst ways to make a missions and also give pointers. Liek some First Person Shooters, they have Map Depot's, Why can't we have a Mission Depot where ever one goes to get missions. They can be rated on how Historiclly accurate they are and realisim of the missions in general.

That sound like something people would like to do?

Razer

posted 03-11- 09:02 AM               

Maybe some of the great mission builders can write somthing up.

posted 03-11- 09:30 AM               

I knew there was something about you I liked.

I am so onboard with you here! Ask any of my squad mates and they will tell you I hate the "No" mission, missions. Don't get me wrong, I love to mix it up in dogfights, but my God, that sometimes seems thats all we have.

And don't even get me started with the P38 vs P38 dogfight baloney! Geesh!!!

Now after ranting, I realize that some guys like that kinda thing. It's a free world, or....wait....Hey Siggi! Is it still a free world? I forget.
Joke, its a joke!

Guess the thing to do would be to set up one lobby for more historical, or at least "mission" based missions, and one for dogfights only.

Or not.

PR=FC=

posted 03-11- 10:10 AM               

Yeah maybe a historical lobby would be cool.

posted 03-11- 10:46 AM               

Give it a try,
-=BAB=- Gunner

posted 03-11- 11:45 AM               

You can pick whatever role you want, whether diversionary intrusion/softening flight, escort, bomber, or interception. You take off, do your stinkin' job and land. Of course, this is for my solo missions, but when I do the online thing, I kind of like to keep it the same. If you want to do the ground attack thing in an 8 plane setup, do 2 flights per side. One flight the bomber or the group intercepting the bomber, or escort.

posted 03-11- 11:54 AM               

In my bombing missions I set up I found the en a/c would charge straight for the bombers take them out and then go dogfight with the escorts.

So I set my missions up that if they ignore the mossie escorts and go for the lancs the mossies have bombs and will take out the targets. If they go for the mossies and ignore the lancs the lancs will do the job.

It appears very few are actually interested in doing a mission correctly, they would rather have dogfights and run up scores.

It is taking a long time but I am slowly training those guys flying escort to do the job, right. LOL!!!

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 03-11- 12:55 PM               

Solution:

We need to survey EVERYONE. I've made up a great questionaire. I'd like the support of the community to post it and get a full response.

Then we can set up target nights/days/weekends to accomidate:

The European Guys,and everyone in there own timezones to find good times to support eachothers best time to fly.

Historical based missions like Spanky speaks of where guys plan on following the mission because they Know in Advance.

Inter-AeroSquadron meets (sorta like JV44 does)

WWI only times.

And something dear to my heart.One hour of the week for those who don't use padlock and wish to have play balance with clouds ON,and HUD off.

Matching up interests with interests.

This would benefit everyones desire to help target their tastes and spend their time ONLINE more efficiantly.

posted 03-11- 01:02 PM               

SOunds like a great idea man. But don't just post the survey here use a survey site.

If you can I find they work much better.

I wish ya had icq but it seems you don't?

posted 03-11- 01:07 PM               

Agreed,a site would be better,but I not gifted enough to set one up nor do I have the space.

But I could pass along my questions to add into a POOL of questions we could all come up with.

In addition. we could also try to target could hosts,by finding out people specs on their boxes/internet connection type.

posted 03-11- 01:35 PM               

When SDOE first came out, the missions were very fun. Everyone tried for their objective and played the mission. And even now peolpe still do "when" that type of mission is hosted.

What I think needs to be done is to have new balanced missions created for use with the new PP. Also Tail has a good suggestion on placing air defence around friendly airfields.

Lastly, one of the biggest reasons I think that the missions you speak of arnt getting played in due to one thing. The ground bug. It makes almost any type of serious ground pounding pointless, if say your typhoon has taken out the ack units, your mossie has marked the target, but you in your Lanc still get hit by the already killed ack. That gets very frustrating.

Spanky, might I suggest that if you'd like to see more of these missions, then perhaps you could make some, host them and tell the people joining what type of game is being played. I think you'd get a more favorable response than you might think.

------------------
Zoycite 33rd~GS

visit The War Paint Factory

posted 03-11- 01:46 PM               

Zoy Ground bug? I have never seen that.

I also think every air base should have at 1 or 2 defensive units posted.

And i would make interesting missions and host them but the fact is i can't. I'm on 56k and i have a p2 266. Which i just don't think would cut it.

I have made some cool missions i wanted to share that i built for online only.

But everyone is in hurry to dogfight and if you tell them that i am hosting just so the real host can grab a mission i made they still pile in expecting a mission. and get all confused.

People don't seem to read what we chat about online half the time before a mission starts.

posted 03-11- 01:57 PM               

Yes a Survey would begood, but better would be extra lobbies on the servers, so ppl have to option of going into a lobby where mission objectives are expected to be followed, or a go into the lobby where anything goes. The anything goes can be fun, but not all the time, it just gets boring as hell..

My vote is for added lobbies for those of us that "really" want to fly

{btw} I always land after mission, unless someone has run into me again.. heh.. it's the only way to finish a victorious mission (victorious means you lived!)

------------------
JV~44 "Naturlich"

If you can't beat em.... out run em!

posted 03-11- 02:08 PM               

Totally Nat.

posted 03-11- 02:47 PM               

I am a little surprised at this thread. I'm also a little confused.

I don't understand what the problem is. Repeatedly I have been told by people smarter than me, that SDOE is peer-to-peer, and it doesn't matter one whit who is host, whether it is a 56k, cable, DSL, or cotton string between old soup cans. Would an SDOE GURU please stand up and set the record straight for us, once and for all.

I will also preface this by saying I AM NOT A MISSION BUILDER. I appreciate the talent that many mission builders possess. I'm sure if I sat down and took the time to do it, I could do it. Right now though, I have two children, a wife, a dog, a cat, a house, my own business, and even with all that, I try and fly at least 5 nights a week, 2-3hours a day. On the days I don't fly online, I fly offline, check this silly board, read books about WWII, watch the Discovery channel when they have programs on aircraft, etc.

When 5.3a came about, it seemed like all the people who fly online didn't have any of the new planes in their missions. Okay, fine. I'm not so stupid I can't take existing fighter vs. fighter contests, and update them.

Well, that wasn't so easy. First thing is people started complaining about the fuel loads. Okay, fine. I went back through all the "new plane" missions I had made, and adjusted them accordingly.

I don't have a preference for fighter vs. fighter missions. I LOVE missions. Hell, I just love to fly online PERIOD. It's just that there wasn't ANYTHING out there being shared online, and I figuree I HAD TO DO SOMETHING.

And as far as similar vs. similar, I always have and always will fly similar vs. similar. There is no better way to work on ACM than completely even the field, and see who's got the hot stick-and-rudder. But am I married to this concept? Hell no. I enjoy it occaisionally, but it is not the mainstay of my existence.

And as far as worrying that missions shouldn't be "balanced," hell no, they shouldn't be completely "even." All I ask is that if I take off on one side of a mission, giving that there is teamwork, and I use the capabilities of my aircraft to the fullest extent, that there's a chance I can complete the mission and come home.

Would I put 3 190's against 3 P-38's with 5.3a? Not just no, but HELL no. Sure, it could have happened in real life. The 38 pilots would have paid with their lives, and will in the virtual skies too, if the 190's are flown by half-ass decent pilots. But hell's bells, that's not even a contest.

Now THAT kids, is BORING.

What we've got here is a situation where someone passes by some trash sitting in the middle of the street, and thinks: "Oh my. That's terrible. I'll go home and call someone right away." They go home, call all their friends, people are organized, bumper stickers are issued, the council is approached, politicians make it part of their platform, and the trash remains sitting, undisturbed, in the street.

The solution to me is painfully obvious. I guess I don't understand why everyone would rather dish up negative energy than see the chrystalline clear solution to this problem.

I submit the following:

1. Either it matters who hosts or it doesn't. Guru step forward. Let's get this decided once-and-for-all, and never bring it up again. If it doesn't matter, then all this caterwaling is just that. If you want to fly missions online, then start hosting the damn things, and then EVERYONE will have the mission in their multiplayer missions folder for time immortal. I would love this.

But let me warn you in advance. Hosting isn't all it's cracked up to be. Lately it's been a real big pain-in-the-ass. Newbies chanting, "Send me the mission! Send me the mission!" Others typing, "Oh God, another fighter vs. fighter, sigh." Others yelling, "Hey, we need more planes!" Someone else yells, "Hey, let my buddy in!" "I said we NEED MORE PLANES! Can't you see?" Well no, I can't. It's 'cause I'm trying to sift through a bunch of missions that are not up-to-date as far as 5.3a matchups. I've been sorting through them as fast as I can, while people go in and out, complaining all the while. I tell ya, it's not easy trying to find one that will have enough planes and please everybody while people are coming in and going out, DT'g, having general kanipschin fits, etc.

It seems as if overnight, everyone forgot their manners. I guess everyone's so corked up over the dt's, getting people straightened out with the right patches and plane pack, that we'll ALL gotten a little testy.

So if it's true that it doesn't matter who hosts (and I hope that's the case, 'cause I'd LOVE for some more people to test this bath-water...frankly, hosting these days is a REAL DRAG), then the solution is simple. Open the secret VAULT OF THE INCREDIBLE MISSIONS, and share them by hosting.

2. If it turns out the host DOES MATTER, then the answer is also quite simple. Design some missions. Zip'em up. E-mail'em to me. I'll unzip them into my multiplayer mission folder. Done. Although a couple words of caution:

Be mindful of including flak, as half the time it disappears to some people, while still being "up" to others. This is a lot of fun, let me tell you. I've been involved in ridiculous exchanges with folks over this. "Flak down." "Well, it's not on my screen." "Um, okay...well...it's down on mine, I saw it blow up, and there's a line through it on my objectives screen." "Well, it's still up on mine." "Um, okay...you're right...I'm lying...I didn't really knock it down...um, I'm just kidding around. That's it, I'm just kidding around..."

And bombers. Not only do the bombers hit frame rates now more than ever with 5.3a, there's that dastardly bomb-bug.

And "eveness." I can guarantee you that no matter how much you put into a mission, someone's gonna blow steam that the plane match-ups are wrong, the fuel is messed up, starting positions are screwy, too much/not enough wind, etc.

And make sure to "standardize" the missions. Each builder should have his own stamp. Example: Spanky calls his missions "Mk10's an Asshole I, Mk10's an Asshole II," etc. also include the number of planes in parenthesis. This will help folks searching through their missions while people are zinging barbs a lot easier, and folks can request them by name.

There. I'm starting to make fun of myself. I'm calming down a little. Yes, the old Mk is coming back into view...

Again, I apologize for my demeanor. I'm a little out of sorts today, and my bitching and moaning is not meant as an attack on ANYONE, but rather frustration coming to a head.

I have been flying this game since last July or August regularly, and I have not met one person yet who did not enjoy flying missions. No one has ever said to me, "Hey Mk, screw this mission crap, let's get in some similar fighters right away!"

If people aren't reading the brief, then they need to start. We can all jump on people who don't, and get them up to speed.

But while we're on the subject, if I'm on my way to bomb something, and a fighter starts closing on me, and I can't get away from them, I am not going to continue to fly forward towards the target and let them shoot me down. I think this is a little silly. There's a difference between blatantly ignoring the parameters of a mission, and fighting when bounced. We need to make sure we're recognizing the difference.

So let's start flying more missions, sure. Let's make sure they utilize the benefits of the 5.3a format. And for God's sake, let's find a way to share them, so they can get into the mission portfolios of non-mission builders, and be shared with the community WHOEVER is hosting.

Hell, we've whupped a lot bigger obstacles than this before. Acting like there's some sort of conspiracy going on which could result in people refusing to fly online with other people is without a doubt the pinnacle of absurdity.

There. I feel better now. Like I said, I'm in a crummy mood, and this just hit a nerve. Believe me kids, hosting lately is not something you look forward to.

Well, I just read this post, and I'm sure this will probably be the end of my SDOE career. Someone will take it the wrong way, be upset with me, and make sure I'm blacklisted. I'm not upset with anyone here, I just want to work together to get good missions for everyone to fly.

Sitting on the ledge, ignoring the screams of the crowd below yelling, "Jump! Jump!",

posted 03-11- 03:16 PM               

Nope i thought that was a great post man.

K about hosting. it is peer to peer but the hosts computer also handles the AI so it would help to have at least ISDN.

Also i run a p2 266 and regularly dip below 15-20FPS so that would warp me and all the AI i think. That would not be good.

We need a place to store missions and people to make online missions. then maybe there will be enough choice to have more fun without resorting to the old 4 on 4 furball stuff.

----------------------------------------

SO far then we have relized that we need a place to store the good missions we have made and maybe even a rating for the missions so the good ones get used more often.

Also we have noticed that maybe we should have a night dedicated to historical missions.

posted 03-11- 03:19 PM            

Time for a quasi campaign. First team to 5,000 points wins - target successes are a big part of this as well as successful defence. Attacking side will be random (as will be matchups and objectives - yes we might even have to fly the typhoon). The missions will be Dover based. Missions will be set up before entering the lobby and will be based on the number of people available - up to 16.

I'll start tonight.

The whole thing about the new planes is everybody wants to use them. Noone's taken the time to construct new missions with them.

What I'll do is set up the missions to start early in the war - so mossies, lancs, spit1a vs ju88, 109e. Then later in campaign we'll introduce p38, b17, p51, vs 109f,g,k and 190a4 190d and the 262.

posted 03-11- 03:23 PM               

Hosting is kinda stressful isn't it?

My wife just got back after being away for a month but if I can sneak back to the computer again I'll try and come up with some '5.3a' missions if it'll help bud..

TS

posted 03-11- 03:36 PM               

great to hear Spin

Is it possible to make an offline campain type thing that everyone always cheers about with EAW?

posted 03-11- 04:26 PM               

Well some of you know me already. Forstly GREAT! about bloody time someone set a standard in SD. Read this, its a coment my Friend (an ex pilot0 sent me when I said about the poor on-line quality:

"RL war's no game. Too many of my family's names appear on war memorials. Don't feel sick, feel honoured, 'n' try flying virtually as if you were doing it for real; those dead-'n'-gone guys deserve it. Reason why I get a bit het-up when dweebs start arcade-gamesmanship tactics and the 'sim's' developers do nothing about it; they do themselves and those men no honour by profiting from an arcade-game that makes light of honest sacrifice."

I think he sums it all up, don't you?

On another note. I've been waiting for the new plane pack to finish my BIG mission project but it will be released soon containing one BIg campaign of historicaly acurate and planned missions. Here is a hint. It is a fictional campaign but is also based on historical facts. A sort of "What if"...

posted 03-11- 04:37 PM               

Picture this. How about having a REAL TIME campaign. Here is how it would work.

1-you set up a website setting the story, situation and showing sides. you then pick a side and mail it to the person hosting this all.

2-The person hosting makes the hole campign or at least the start.

3-each week at a set time a mission is flown for that campaign. Depending on the result depends on how the mission builder creates the next weeks mission.

4-this goes on until the battle is won.

So at the start of the mission each side is set a number of planes. When all planes are used up the campaign is over.....

Well you get the idea...

MrBlob

If you like the idea then I'd volenteer as "one" member of a team needed to run this.

posted 03-11- 05:37 PM               

For bomber jocks the online missions do not show point totals for ground targets destroyed like it does with offline play.

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 03-11- 05:48 PM               

------------------
JV~44 "Naturlich"

If you can't beat em.... out run em!

http://members.xoom.com/naturlich/

posted 03-11- 06:32 PM               

------------------

posted 03-11- 07:03 PM               

Some folks can't even fly now online with 6 fighters without warping all over due to FPS issues.

Again, we need a survey to find out who wants to fly bomber/historical/fantasy plane match-ups, ect...... and when.

And also who's box is capable of what size missions/missions with bombers,ect.Find the common interests/capibilities/time frames available and match em up.

posted 03-11- 07:44 PM               

"Real war is a random act of violence. You make do with what you have. Nothing is ever the way its supposed to be, and nothing is ever fair or even. Lots of good men were lost flying 2 man patrols when there was supposed to be no enemy in the area. Thats how it was though, sometimes you get caught with your ass out sometimes you catch them. Thats the element of surprise boys. Not every unit was flying the most recent aircraft. Hell toward the end of the war the Japs were flying anything with wings and a gun. I've landed on strips of hard packed dirt where the Sea Bees still had their bulldozers running. Flew a mission once where we didn't have enough fuel for the return trip. The strip we landed at had no fuel either. We were stranded for 3 damn days, waiting for them to ship it in. You gotta fly your mission under any circumstances. If all we had to fly were captured Zeros with a hundred rounds a piece, we would paint the stars and hit the skies. Your main objective is survival though. Remember that those who fight and run away live to fight another day. You never fight it out to the last man unless you have to. A lot of your aces were made by good timing and dumb luck and war heros often took unnecessary risks. I've seen green pilots get 2 kills when squadron C.O.'s barely got out alive. Good pilots aren't greedy for kills. The most realistic element you boys will never achieve is fear, it effects every decision you make. The sound of bullets ripping through your hull will change your life. P-38s fighting each other is not realistic but it is good training. My grand son has shown some of your other messages, and some of you boys need to relax. I'm sure that any of us vets who run across this game will be proud (as I am)of your interest and what you are trying to achieve. Remember that this is a game and enjoy yourselves."

posted 03-11- 08:04 PM               

Great post!

The "fear" factor is one that is very difficult to achieve in sims. It's easy to go guns blazing at a large group of bombers when you know that if you get blown out of the sky you can exit out to the lobby and do it all over again.

I guess all we can do to try and achieve at least a small portion of that is to keep track of pilot deaths, bailout's, successful missions, succesfull landinds at base, etc. Maybe on some kind of tally board.

If we all get dinged in points for losing a pilot, maybe we would be more careful with our virtual lives.

Thanks for your contribution to this site.

I know we would all enjoy hearing from you again.