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Author
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Topic: P-51 note not a flame!
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Hawker
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 02:55 AM
   
Heya,I was thinking as I was in the AE71 sqd,that my guys gave sdoe a couple try's,and i dunno,seems like the first thing they do is try the 51 and its too touchy the bag all of sdoe for it.Now i have flown 5.3 it is a great improvement,and iI know how hard this stuff is as i tried to fm the tiffie myself.It aint in no way easy trust me,many long frusterating hours are spent(and wasted) to try to make things better just to find you have to start all over from scratch.What I am saying is I do find the 51 a touchy still,especially compared to the 109's.I think if we can get the 51 a lil more stable that they will come by the hundreds,the thousands even  .alot of people dont have a good sim to fly ,and are waiting for b-17-2 or fctoe to come out may or so.If the 51 can be made a lil more stable i think they will enjoy and fly sdoe till then if not even longer Hawker 225th IP: Logged |
Zoycite
JAG
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posted 02-26- 03:51 AM
I like the speed now, it seems to have a little more pep. Well atleast it just felt that way. But it is a little unforgiving. I'd like it to be a little closer to the one in pp5.2, but with just a tad bit more speed.After saying that, if the current 51 stays as is, then as long as it is competative when matched up against LW aircraft, then I will make a go with the new model. If the 190 still has a insane advantage over it, then I think I might just break down, and who knows, maybe go do something drastic like go play Quake  Ok, well not really. ------------------
Zoycite {GS}
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Whirlwind
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 08:41 AM
Define touchy. If it turns to fast, you might cheat and change the airCord for the wingtips to a lower number. If it stalls to easy, I can't remember what to do, but I think Tailslide has a rather nice FAQ on how to adjust things to make them 'right'. If you don't want to do it yourself, I'm sure someone is probably going to undertake it. They might need a good professional 'flight test' report from someone who knows what to expect. In the chance someone does do a flight test, be as detailed as you can. IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 10:55 AM
I understand Hawker, but something that most people don't realize is that the 51 IS that touchy. Most other games dumb it down so that most people can fly it. This plane had ALOT of power for her size and weight, and she would snap roll in a turn very easily. This is much easier to fly than 5.2's version, and I don't mind flying it now. I still think that the 190 is a bit Uber, but the 51 can keep the B&Zers scared much better than she could before. It does take some getting used to. Especially coming out of sims where you can "Yank and Bank" with no ill effects. But once you get used to how she flies, she is a great ship. ;}
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Mirthain=FC=
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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 11:59 AM
Spanky here.. Well I have to take the 5.3 one for a flight. I couldn't stand the 5.2 one. Hopefully this one isn't so quick to roll onto her back. IP: Logged |
Zoycite
JAG
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posted 02-26- 12:54 PM
Heya,Mirth, you are correct about the roll or wing dip when yanking hard. It just seems a little over done, when compared to the other planes. I'm not a pilot nor have I done any comparitive research, but should not the 190 roll rate be faster or more pronounced than the current 51? It does bleed E nicely. You really have to watch it now. I still think as long as its competitive then I will stick wtih it. I do find it strange though that people find this model easier to fly than the 5.2 version. I felt very comfortable with it even at 500 ft or less, now I'd better stay around 1000ft or more just incase Just out of curiosity, what was changed in this version? I thought that only the rudder was being changed, so as to make it easier to take off in. Funny, now I have a hard time taking off in it. Guess I just need to get used to it. ------------------
Zoycite {GS}
GUNSLINGERS visit The War Paint Factory IP: Logged |
nealg
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 12:58 PM
Had to post on this...again, no expert, far from it...  . But I keep trying to fly the Mustang, and I do prefer the characteristics of the 5.3 over the 5.2. I have even been able to loop it, with judicious use of rudder, hehehe.One thing I have noticed, though, and wondered about...it seems that one or two hits, anywhere on the plane, causes engine damage? Speed is definitely one of the biggest advantages the Pony had, and a wing hit causing loss of speed even in a dive ( has happened to me 3 times ) means keep the 51 out of dogfights! Anyone else noticed this, or could it be a bug with my setup? ------------------
nealg=FC=
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Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 01:28 PM
There is a readme included that outlines my changes.. pretty minor stuff, ground handling should be a little easier and it should retain energy a bit better in shallow turns.
Biggest change is the fw190a4 is 20mph slower so you should be able to outrun it in the p51 easily now. TS
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Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 01:48 PM
Spanky here... Yeah thats what i hated most about the 51. I could never loop it. it would always flip or stall. Probly both. Is that how it really was? IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 02:04 PM
Spanky here... K well i just flew it around a bit. Not in combat and it felt ok. Maybe I'll actually try it online now. Then i guess we will see. IP: Logged |
Mk10 225th
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 03:04 PM
I haven't noticed a lot of "more tipsy/less tipsy" difference between say, the '51 and the 109's, even the K, as far as one being more or less prone to "flopping."And I think it is more the fact that the 190 has lost a little top end that has made the '51 seem like a lot more plane than it was before. One thing I think I've gleaned from talking to other sim pilots about this, is that a lot of folks might be using digital sticks. The '51, and the 109K and 190 for that matter (all of the following ideads only MHO, I am not learned enough about this stuff to talk like I REALLY know what I'm doing...LOL), are all pretty skiddish, and can roll over on you in a heartbeat. Since I use an analog stick, it has a little mechanical back pressure to the left and right, and forward and back. I find with this minute back pressure, I'm able to ride that fine line between precise flight-line, and upside down disaster. Not that I don't flop around like a pig a lot of the times, but can usually save it before it's critical. I think with a digital stick that in many ways is a hell of a lot more precise, there may not be that subtle back pressure, and I can imagine that it would be a lot tougher for me to control aircraft that will flip one way or the other with a breath in the right direction. I've gotten to the point where I can reverse break turn fairly well with the rudder without flipping all the way over, and nosing in. At lease MOST of the time! LOL But I wonder if I would feel as comfortable with the '51, or the 109K or 190 for that matter, if I didn't have a little back-pressure helping me find that fine control line. I'd be interested to hear what other people feel about their, let's see, have to be careful how I phrase this, choice of flight joystick to use with flight simulators, in regard to how "in control" they feel of their aircraft when they fly. All in all, I have never felt more comfortable getting into almost any aircraft against any other with the 5.3. Flown well, almost all have the ability to be formidable against a variety of opponents. This has been making for some really neat match-ups, and I'm sure missions will follow. Thanks again to all who put forth so much for the 5.3, and I'd be curious to hear other comments about, let's see, have to be careful again here, how others feel about the control they are able to enjoy with their chosen joysticks with the aircraft they fly. Someone could still have fun with that, but I think I dodged at least a FEW bullets. Mk10=225th= IP: Logged |
Zoycite
JAG
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posted 02-26- 03:42 PM
Good point MK,Perhaps I just need to re adjust my stick. I had to do this when pp 5.2 first came out. Tail, I didnt know that you worked on the Stang. Well, then I feel a little better about the new version seeing how I know that you have done your homework Keep in mind all that my opinions are only based on one night of flying PP 5.3. So I'm probably jumping the gun on my review ------------------
Zoycite {GS}
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Ishmael
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 04:07 PM
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/#Anchor-17503 Go watch the training film for 51 here if you dont think it could loop. By all accounts it was twitchy, but that was a good thing, and it was a BnZ plane best above 15,000ft. I've been thinking of buying this sim, but is the 51 that hard to fly in it? That much hp should be able to loop without problems even at 150ais if you do a wide enough loop. It was also one of the best high speed divers because of sealed ailerons. Stalls were also comparatively mild and it didn't whip at tail, but rolled slowly with little tendancy to spin----that's what the pilot training manual says anyway. IP: Logged |
Von Ruoff
Cadet
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posted 02-26- 04:34 PM
Well I guess i should say somthing about this string, since I have had the Honor of actually rideing in a P-51. My family has a very close friend how owns several classic aircraft (about 20 of them hehe) Including the corsier, t-34 trainer, several other just basic aircraft, And his baby the P-51 mustang. I had the pleasure of actually going on a short ride with Jim around the towns where i grew up back in Indiana. Very exciting, He has a modified cockpit so that someone can actually sit behind him as he flys (had to actually put a emergency chute on to go riding withhim thank god my mom didnt know hehe) now we did not go any where near the full military speed of this plane, and the only thing I could say about it is smooootthhhhhh. Jim threw it into several hard banks with no significant drop in stability. And we even dove on a freight train that was speeding along (that was awesome, I could only guess what the engineer thought. Now I was only in this plane for probably a total 15-20 minutes so my experience cant reallly hold that much water but if you guys want, I'll try and get ahold of him and get his impressions on the aircraft at various speeds, see how the stability is and how the energy bleeds off. He has had this plane for about 3 years now, and he takes it to air shows around the country, so he probably has a fairly good idea of its potential. Now if I can only get a ride in that corsier heheheVon Ruoff
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Ishmael
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 05:07 PM
See what I mean? Get your pilot friend to go tell what he knows at EAW and WW2 fighters sites as well. It made aces out of many new pilots in WW2---many new guys had over 5 kills. It gets awful treatment in sims. It did have a poor climb rate, but at speed it could zoom away without being touched and turn well while moving very fast. It was much more than just an attractive aircraft. The redtails never lost a bomber during there escorts---never 1. IP: Logged |
bjorn
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 05:55 PM
Like with most aircraft, the secret is to be careful on the stick. It's easy to pull the p51 into an accelerated stall, so go very gentle on the elevator. If you want to loop, even at low speeds, slowly apply some back pressure, hold it softly, and slowly increase throttle. During this time, keep an eye on the artificial horizon, it tells you momentarily if you're beginning to lose direction.The powerful engine is a mixed blessing. Sure, it can pull a lot, but it also produces a lot of torque. Don't slam the throttle to the max, especially not when close to a stall.
_
/Bjorn. IP: Logged |
Nat
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 07:10 PM
wierd though, you know since flying SDOE not long after it's UK release, I've never had an ounce of trouble flyin the stang, from the origonal release a/c or the one in pp5.3, I have to admit I find all these posts about the trouble with it handeling, but I've never had any at all (except once or twice with 5.3, the occasional snap roll when performing a break turn)All in all guys, I have to say, that I like how this handles, and don't quite know what you're all talking about, all you've said here applies to the 109's (except for the G6) in my opinion. Thats the one that everything you've said holds trueth for me. That being said... all I can make of the reports is that the way the a/c handles really is down to how your system is set up, if someone builds the FM on one system with one type of stick, and for them flies great, will inevatbly mean that for someone else, it'll fly like a brick, and I don't see anyway to change this. IP: Logged |
Spyder
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 07:10 PM
Well I don't mind the 51 nowadays since I got used to being more gentle on the stick.
My only bitch with it is how the rudder suddenly bites when you try to adjust for swing on the runway. Often I end up running around in complete circles.
I'm thinking it's probably ok for people with rudder pedals being able to quickly compensate but using the keyboard and incremental taps sucks.
It's good in the air though.------------------
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Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 07:12 PM
Zoy, the p51 is Pang's baby.. I just changed the rudder travel to the historic travel and removed the angled prop wash from the tail to make the takeoffs a bit easier. I haven't gotten big into researching or testing the p51 at all. If you're finding the planes floppy make sure to drop a notch of flaps when you get to 200mph or so. The real p51 had combat flaps that could partially extend up to very high speeds to help keep it stable. TS
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Hawker
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 07:13 PM
Tail i didnt mean I havent noticed the improvements, just the (Input?), from joystick. It seems I have to set stick for either the 51 or set it for the rest of the planes,If i set my stick for the 51 then my other handling if I use a differnt plane isnt right either.What I am saying is the stick input is too touchy and yes I use a digital stick Maybe this helps?Untill I fly a real one I will never know tho and maybe a real 51 stick would help too with realistic throw instead of this lil joystick [This message has been edited by Hawker (edited 02-26-2000).] IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 02-26- 09:18 PM
Well,
We are talking about being able to fly ALL the planes within minutes of each other.... Even during the war, most of the time you had a few day or a couple of weeks to orientate yourself to the new AC. Now, we just switch willy nilly all over. I have flown every fighter in the sim in one night. Unheard of at the time. Our comparisons are based on flying a different AC every half an hour. Yes the 51 is touchy, but when you are only flying the 51, you get to know her personality, and become a great pilot and expert in this ac. Same hold true for most of the AC.
I always have to remember not to try and Yank and Bank in the thing, then I do ok. If you don't force her, she responds pretty well.
For some reason the 5.3 51 does seem more tame in the snap roll department. Can't say why, but she is more stable in the air.
As for sticks.... got me... I use digital (Panther DX) and have no problem with any plane I fly.
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Mirthain=FC=
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bjorn
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 02:23 AM
Another secret for taking off with planes that tend to swing a lot...Most tail draggers tend to swing one way while the tail is on ground, and then suddently start swinging the other way when the tail lifts. You cannot stop the plane from doing this, but you can reduce its effect by, you guessed it, careful throttle handling. When you start, apply only so much throttle as you need to get the tail to lift, say about half as a first guesstimate. Leave it there until the tail is in the air, and then, not before, slowly apply full throttle. The sudden swing will be far less powerful and much easier to compensate for.
_
/Bjorn.
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nealg
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 02:47 AM
Mk10 - Analog here...CH combatstick.I set all my sensitivity, etc., based on the 51...why? Don't know...guess cause it is the Allied plane I had the most trouble flying Spyder - I use rudder pedals, and can say this...if I forget and just slam hard right /left rudder.....ooooooopppps!! hehe ------------------
nealg=FC=
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Yardstick
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 03:49 AM
I'm sorry but if you can't fly the P-51D well in this sim you should questions your own piloting skills rather than the sims FM. The 5.3 FM makes the P-51 one of the most potent aircraft in the sim 9 in my opinion just behind the A-4/3 which is perhaps still a little too uber). The acceleration is very good, it is far more stable in the turn, and the dive and zoom climb performance are exceptional (only the A-4/3 zooms better).Of the Luftwaffe aircraft only the A-3/4 and the 109K can realy stay with it in a fight. On take off it is pretty docile (try the 109K or F if you want to try difficult in this regard). If you abuse the P-51 it will bite back, and bite backhard. Keep you energy high and the kills come in droves. ------------------
Yardstick painted this
[This message has been edited by Yardstick (edited 02-27-2000).] IP: Logged |
Zoycite
JAG
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posted 02-27- 04:25 AM
Ok, I have had a second night of flights in the new 51 and............ Its much better. I just had to adjust my sick a little and now its fine Feels much closer to what the 51 in 5.2 felt like to me now but with some umphf. I did not get a chance to face off with a A-4 though. Maybe tomorrow night.Also after adjusting my stick for the 51, I had no adverse effects with the ohter planes. I'm a happy camper now Oh and just to let you all know that Tailslide has done a oustanding job with the Mossie. You all should try it. Its a blast. More so depending on which end you are on
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Zoycite {GS}
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Spyder
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 06:00 AM
Bjorn, I know what you're trying to say and it works ok for the 190 etc but I can't seem to get the 51 to move at a snails pace without the tail wanting to run off somewhere.
Little throttle and once it gets moving I suddenly turn left, appyling rudder seems to make it worse or the delay before it kicks in makes it useless.
Reminds me of the old 109 takeoff in 5.2 but that plane behaves nicely now.
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Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 06:29 AM
On missions with a full fuel tank and a crosswind the p51 whips around in circles when I try to taxi. I had this problem with the 5.2 version too.. I don't have any problems taking off in the p51 take off training mission but that has no wind and a normal fuel load. TS
[This message has been edited by Tailslide (edited 02-27-2000).] IP: Logged |
Mk10 225th
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 09:00 AM
Spyder and Tail, just so you don't feel like Lone Rangers, I have a bear of a time getting the 5.3a '51 off the ground smoothly myself. At times I've thought of maybe having some one design a take-off point on top of a high cliff, so I could just roll forward and start falling.109's take off a lot better than they did in 5.2, and I agree with Spyder that the '51 in 5.3a is as bad or worse than the 109's in 5.2. But, I'll keep fartin' around with'em, and hopefully get a little more proficient at getting them in the air. Mk10=225th= IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 02:55 PM
Mk10, try the p51 training mission with 40% throttle.. it's easy as pie from there. TS
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Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 03:12 PM
What I have learned from all the aircraft to this point is that unless they have a counter rotating prop, or more than 2 engines, NEVER use 100% throttle on T/O. I gradually scale up to about 50%, then when the plane leaves the ground, I then push up the throttle. This is true for any of the tail draggers. Including the Mossie. She has a tendency to sway when her tail comes up too. The biggest mistake anyone can make here is dumping full throttle when trying to do something. The torque will drive into the ground almost every time. ;}
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Mirthain=FC=
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Hawker
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 05:32 PM
Ok i have set my new Logitech extreme digital stick up for the 51 seems ok, not bad actually,just need to see how it will handle as an all plane setting IP: Logged |
Spyder
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 05:39 PM
So Tail i s the 51's fuel tank too large in this sim?
As you know I lower the fuel in my missions (Hawker was my mentor blame him) as it's more realistic flying to Blighty and just having enough to get back to France.
I'll try it with a low tank next time.
In the air though, it's a real contender now, I have to adjust some of my missions to allow for the slower 190's.
Mk, all that farting around, that's where the wind's coming from!
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Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-27- 06:17 PM
Baked beans = WEP Spyder, none of the planes have seperate fuel tanks objects yet so handling under different fuel loads is not perfect. I just posted a beta of the 190 on the OPP forum with seperate fuel tanks modelled below the pilots seat where they are supposed to be if you are curious to try.
TS
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