posted 02-24- 06:19 AM               

Be sure to post any thoughts in the article discussion area of the site.

Thanks

posted 02-24- 07:00 AM               

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posted 02-24- 07:13 AM               

www.furballmag.com

BTW the forum automaticaly adds the [url][/url] to any addy you put in
i typed in the addy all by itself and it works just fine

posted 02-24- 01:17 PM            

Well, I know that I have no saving graces with you, and this probably won't help me win any points either.

No doubt, that was a fun read, and I'm sure people will get a kick out of the test.

Just MHO, but I think the point is lost.
IMHO, the difference between "hardcore" and "arcade" is in the flight model, damage model, etc. of the sim, and the amount of effort people put into learning about air combat maneuvers, tactical discipline, etc.

This is natural, right? Some people buy a canoe and only take it out on a lake. Others fill it with airbags and go shooting fast, whitewater rivers with it.

The point is lost because the wrong questions are being asked. More revelant questions might have been, "Do you fly formation with your wingman?", or "Do you use communications with your wingman?", or "Do you know the essentials of a bracket maneuver in a 2 vs. 2 fight?". Maybe ask,
"Do you have a clue what a wingman or a
bracket is?".

In an arcade-level sim, "real-life" air combat maneuvers are useless. In a "hardcore" sim, flown by a "hardcore" sim enthusiast, proper air combat maneuvers and discipline will win the day.

Believe it or not, there is a hardcore community out there. They have mostly been flying sims like Warbirds or Ace's High. One name comes to mind that shows up on SDOE - Camo - hardcore, and a nice guy to boot.

Another beautiful example of a group that deserves tremendous respect is the "Dickweed Bomber Group" that has flown Warbirds and now fly Ace's High. Many of these guys are professional pilots. If you ever see them flying in Ace's High, you basically immediately know it. Their capabilities in formation flying - a key to good ACM - is just a fantastic thing of beauty to see. It's hard to attck these guys - you just want to fly around them in awe.

I'm not sure what color these guys would get on your test, but they are hardcore, for sure.

In short, there is an "arcade community" and a "hardcore community" out there. The latter simply spend more time with their hobby, and are more educated in it. I respect these guys.

I fully understand your article was for fun, but if you do actually want to make up a test for the hardcore simmer, you have to ask more relevant questions.

posted 02-24- 02:47 PM               

LOL

posted 02-24- 03:20 PM               

Nope I never do that. Just ask Mad Dog theres no coke cans towering on any avalible surface near or on the computer. So many that we get confused with which can we are working on at the moment. Naw theres no chip bags behind the tower.
No chocolate bar wrapers and wonka candy boxes falling off the desk.

And never. NEVER would there be an old cup of Sweet and sour sauce be side the monitor for the chinese food.

Never mind the salt shaker beside the right speaker. Thats not for food.

Nope I don't think I ever was in the middle of a flight and felt the familiar cool liquid of a slowly (forgoten) melting popsicle running across the desk under my joystick.

I do have a cold though so there is a tower of Toilet paper full of my snot beside the keyboard. Well i might be part of the desk now that its stuck to that non exsitent pile of chewed gum and wrappers.

Yep I must say that I am HARD CORE and I never eat junk food while i fly.

posted 02-24- 03:56 PM               

I remember those days very well

Of course now, with a wife in the house things are a little diferent.

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-< -< -< -<
Esox=FC=

posted 02-24- 05:53 PM               

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posted 02-24- 06:09 PM               

In the RW pilots can track a target like padlock so I think its real.

But in SDOE we have this lovely bendy neck which turns 360 so that I think is not very real.

posted 02-24- 06:10 PM               

Some people use the term "Arcade" as a form of a put-down to those cyber flyers who prefer not to spend every waking moment perfecting skills which will not in any way help them pay the bills. Instead, they fly for the "fun" of it, and if and when they get better, and maybe meet a few fellow flyers of a like mind...all the better.

To other people, "Arcade" might mean flying in a game with Countries represented by colors instead of names, and aircraft of all countries flying on the same side.

I think the truth is the designation means nothing. After all, these are "games" we are playing, and while thay can be challenging, and require great skill, they will always be games. The whole Hardcore/Arcade labels are really kind of silly. At what point does a player, or a game go from Arcade to Hardcore? What button is pushed, or switch fliped? And who makes that determination?

The Hardcore/Arcade thing has gotten out of hand, and turned into a badge of honor that some wear like a medal. Give me a break. So your hardcore because what..you say so? And that label means what in the grand scheme?

Just play the game, if you shoot down the same guy a dozen times let him give you a label.

It is fun to debate though.

posted 02-24- 08:32 PM               

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posted 02-24- 10:10 PM               

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Mirthain=FC=

posted 02-25- 12:47 AM            

I think some of the rest of your must either just plain want to spit venom or I don't know what.

Read my post again. Enough "smileys" in there for you?

What I said is that when a flight sim is "good enough" in flight model and damage model so that the use of real air combat maneuvers will give a person an advantage - like in real life, then some people would call that hardcore. SDOE is good enough to allow this, and so I would call it hardcore. Others might not.

Now, does that opinion really deserve the kind of lashing that Mirthain felt like dishing out? Am I really this evil ogre that needed to be lambasted?

OK - go ahead - say what you want about me, no bother - except for one thing, that I feel I have the right to defend. Mir said:

>>>Something else here.... if you really want to be the Uber Hardcore dude, then why don't you have ACM practices where you give pointers and help people get better? I really hate this endless moaning and wailing from so many people that refuse to do anything to help with the problem... <<<

This proves that you know nothing about me, so go stick it. I have spent more hours "training" people who are interested in air combat maneuvers than you clearly know anything about. This is what our squad is all about. That's the way that I got interested in combat flight simulations, and so I always do my best to continue to further the cause. Closer to "home", Tailslide has mentioned that he was going to train people in 1 vs. 1 in SDOE, and I offered to help, so if we can help interested people, just let us know. I'm sure I can learn plenty from this as well. The key purpose of putting on a 2 vs. 2 tournament is to get people "training" in 2 vs. 2 tactics.

You know, I flew SDOE practically every night since its release, up until September 1999. I spent hours developing missions for it. All this for what? To have someone like Mir spit bile at me?

Forget about it people.

posted 02-25- 02:12 AM               

Ahh Hedgehog, dont take it so hard. I hear you have been up lately, I hope when I get back on line you will be there

First for all you that dont know HH, the things that Mirth says he should do to help better this sim, is the exact stuff he has done.

When SDOE first came out, it was only the second sim that I'd ever played online. And after coming from the not so friendly RB skies, who do you think was here. HH. At first I had no clue on what to do, let alone know about working together to acheive mission goals. After flying with HH and helping in testing his new missions, I gained a love for online simming that I cant credit to anyone other than Hedgehog. HH, I thank you again His patience with me at this time was simply amazing. And it was very fun to boot.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you dont know a guy, take a breath before commenting on the unknown.

I know that yes this is a game and we all play it to enjoy it. Whether it be the lonewolf type or the guy who enjoys the squad opps, its still a game. And actually performing squad tactics is very exciting. IMH it adds a whole new level to the fun of the game. Being able to enjoy the spoils of victory with friends is always fun, aswell as the agony of a botched mission.

Ohh how I miss my squadies

Hedgehog or Tail, would Stark and I be able to take part in some of your SBM training sessions? Anything that I can learn to keep Tail off my 6 would be greatly apreciated

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Zoycite {GS}
GUNSLINGERS

visit The War Paint Factory

posted 02-25- 03:23 AM            

That's what the SBM are all about. Let us know when you'll be around. TS said he would conduct the 1 vs. 1, and we've been doing some 2 vs. 2 as well. This is going on in small groups. You'll do best with 2 vs. 2 if you get a wingman that you can stick with.
Stark is a fine combat flight simmer. Also, I believe you have Shaw's book, but if you don't, it will be good to get. We've been using it as the main reference so far.][

Send TS or myself EMAIL. I'm going to stay away from this bboard, and will only post updates regarding the planned SDOE 2 vs. 2 tournament.

posted 02-25- 04:28 AM               

Well there we go. What a fucking pussy. One little argument and he goes and leaves.

If you want to leave just do it. Ya don't need to broadcast it.

No "smileys" !!!

posted 02-25- 09:37 AM               

All of the above speak toward getting the greatest realism possible out of a sim, and this is good. There have been a number of times I have flown with (and against) HH and I will testitfy to the fact that he is an excellent pilot.

Taking the time to train people is something more people should do. Pang did it with me (thank you Pang). I did it with several others etc. Why7 The best way to learn something is to teach it. Am I good? Not really. Am a better than I used to be? Most definately (plus I almost never hit the stops on my joystick which will make it last longer)
The final question then is one of balance. HH, if you are attempting to be realistic, why is balance in a mission a driving prerequisite? Some of the greatest victories in war come out of a lack of balance. (The AVG in China is a quick example). Some of the best online missions are NOT balanced. In this area I would not consider you hardcore. See, smiley face????

The other part you seem to miss is humor, but I belive that has been covered.

posted 02-25- 09:52 AM               

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Madmoe =FC=

posted 02-25- 10:54 AM               

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Mirthain=FC=

posted 02-25- 12:05 PM            

Let me try to reply without getting people annoyed - perhaps not an easy thing to do.

Pvt. Roger's editorial was in gest. I understand. I did find it funny. Also, I never said that SDOE people are simply flying "arcade". On the contrary, I said that SDOE should be classified as a "hardcore" sim - whatever that means.

Maybe it's not people's intention, but what I'm getting from, and take issue with, this whole conversation is the implication that you cannot have a "serious" flight simulation because it, by definition, cannot be the real thing. Sure, literally, no one can disagree with that.

But there is a way to practice and improve technique in good combat flight simulations. And as the sim is made more "realistic", the use of realistic air combat maneuvers will be more and more successful. This is my only point, guys.

Some people have said, "I come to fly flight sims to have fun.", with the term "having fun" seeming to mean that they just want to jump into the sim, fly around and shoot. If that's what someone wants to do for fun, that's fine. But some people (in SDOE, Falcon 4, Ace's High - all the good sims) believe that fun is learning about the aircraft, spending time reading books on air combat maneuvering, etc. and apply what they learn to online combat.

The full spectrum of people exist in this regard.

Now, consider the following analogy - hopefully this will clarify what I'm saying once and for all. Consider playing chess. There are a given set of rules. And, without argument, so people are better than others playing the game, from new players to Grand Masters, right? The better players get better because fun for them is learning the playing techniques that are superior. OK, now, IHMO, I would consider any chess player - from highest to lowest ranking a "hardcore" player if they are working to improve their game. That's just MHO, no one needs to agree - just trying to make myself clear.

Now, consider the same situation - playing chess - but take away the rules. Say, for example pawns can move backward, and the king can move like a knight. The game changes, and the standard tactics don't all work anymore. Same thing in combat flight sims. Let's say suddenly all planes don't bleed energy (like the original v1.0 SDOE), then some of the "real life" air combat maneuvers won't work. So, as far as the flight sims are concerned, IMHO, an "arcade" flight sim is one that has many of the usual "rules" of real aircraft dynamics stripped away. The more "hardcore" sims are ones that preserve real flight dynamics and damage modelling. No simulation is ever the "maximum hardcore", nor the "maximum arcade" level, and people will debate about which sim is more realistic than another. No argument here.

My only point is that it is at least possible, like in chess, to become better at a flight simulation by working on understanding and applying real air combat maneuvers, as long as that simulation is "realistic enough" to support that maneuvering. If some people don't want to do that because it's not fun for them, ok, no problem. Just don't deny the fact that some people find studying and applying ACM as a great deal of fun, and that it is possible to do successfully in a flight simulation that is capable enough. And, as I've said all along, SDOE is capable enough. It's a hobby, and like any hobbies, people experience and enjoy them in different ways.

OK - that said, let me finish up. Regarding "balance" in SDOE missions - my desire to provide balance is simply to allow everyone to have the potential to succeed in a given mission. I assume that people - especially newcomers - don't want to jump into a mission in which they get slaughtered with very little chance to survive. On the other hand, for the more experienced, going up against harsh odds is sometimes challenging and fun. Everyone that I was flying with last night can attest to me jumping into the more difficult aircraft and situations (taking the P-38, P-51, and Typhoon against the FM 5.3 190 is proof enough . Bottom line is that missions do not have to be "balanced" to be "hardcore" - far from it.

As far as people thinking in an egomaniac, I'm sorry if I come off that way. I am certainly not anywhere near being the best pilot around here. Maybe it's just because I talk about ACM and "better" flights sims so much that people get the wrong idea. I do have strong opinions, like many. But ask thouse I fly with - I'm always trying to improve, and realize that I makes tons and tons of mistakes, and that I'm learning just like anybody else. (There, that proves that I'm not real fighter pilot material.)

As far as showing up and not showing up on this bulletin board or elsewhere, well, we all have limited recreational time, and people in general want to spend it on things they enjoy. I enjoy flying SDOE online, so I'm doing it, and will continue to do so. But I don't enjoy this Bboard. I really enjoyed posting here back when the sim was new, and perhaps I was more in tune with the people. But spending time arguing the points we have been arguing on this thread are pretty pointless. And who likes to be cursed at? So, that's my meaning - my posts used to seem to generate positive results in the "old days". Now, my posts seem to trigger hostility, and I don't want to spend my time doing that. Isn't that reasonable?

See you all online.

posted 02-25- 12:15 PM            

It is great to see HH back in the community. His flying skills and missions are some of the best we see. We still fly many of those missions every night. And watching a Tailslide vs HH scrap is always entertaining.

HH don't leave again, because of comments like this. At the same time, dont' be disappointed when people don't participate in: 1. your tournaments (keep em coming eventually one will work for me) and 2. acm. Most of the people online are there to relax and don't want to be tied to a schedule or commitments - that's why you belong to a squadron and have squadron play.

I think SDOE is well suited to ACM and more so than the pay-as-you-play sims. Mainly because of the finite mission based engine. However, it does have it's weaknesses in that people enter the game at different rates (and when starting in the air this can result in big distances between wingmates) making formation flying difficult. Framerates can also affect formation flying especially in bomber groups (I've watched Kopper stop dead in front of me many times).

posted 02-25- 12:23 PM               

Keep um flying

posted 02-25- 12:30 PM               

Gentlemen, I don't think it's a destination. It's a journey. If you are on this path, you know it.

I think the biggest arguments come from how we apply reality to virtual reality. Flight sims are not real. There are limitations in every one. I've had many discussions with my squaddies about how we make compromises to mitigate those limitations. Yes, you can even change Hedgehog's mind. :-)

The arguments for/against HUD, padlock, etc. cannot be won. We each use different equipment. Some have full-blown HOTAS setups and super-high resolution levels on their monitors. Others do not. Someone running at 1024x768 should not be telling someone at 640x480 to turn his labels off. He may need that compromise to make the sim playable.

WRT "the fanatical devotion to formation flying", it's not just about formations. Flying formation is a learned skill. While mastering it, you also can't help but develop teamwork skills. Certainly, not everyone has progressed along the "path" to the point where they care about teamwork. Many have. Those that have know that dominance and survival in the virtual sky is greatly enhanced for a well-trained, disciplined pair. Try it yourself. Go fly for a day in the arena of your choice and compare the number of kills to the number of aircraft lost. Then, take a wingman and try it again. I'll bet you enjoy a greater advantage. One can only assume that this also held true for pilots of World War 2. Erich Hartmann did not fly alone!

Are some games better suited to the "path" than others? Certainly. Is SDOE a suitable tool? That's up to you. IMHO, it is. It may not be perfect, but there is enough realism here for the teachings of Shaw and the anecdotes of the Luftwaffe to be relevant.

posted 02-25- 12:58 PM            

Thanks. Also, Regarding the tournaments, I am not at all disappointed! The last SDOE tournament that the SBMs "hosted" (which was the first SDOE ACM tournament) was a major success. In fact, there were so many participants that it was very tough to coordinate. At one point, we maxed out the server with participants! Kudos to my squaddie Sandman on organizing that 5+ hour marathon, without even flying a single match himself.

I polled the SBMs a while ago by EMAIL, asking them what their favorite flight sim experience was for 1999,and many said the SDOE tournament - myself included.

Regarding the upcoming 2 vs. 2 tournament - this is really Sandman's baby. I'm just here being a spokesperson and offering help to those that would like to learn more about tactics. Back when our squad was all on the Mac platform, Sandman conducted several such 2 vs. 2 training tournaments - and last I heard, that is his intention this time as well. This is meant to be a learning experience for all. Feel free to ask questions, fly 2 vs 2's online as practice (If you see me online and want to do this, let me know, and we'll drop off to some remote SDOE server somewhere - this is already going on), that's what these "tournaments" are all about.

If we get 4 or 40 people to participate, there's no problem either way. There are no other such events being held in SDOE that I know of, so this will at least provide some people the option to experience the fun of such an event, if they are interested.

=Hedgehog

posted 02-25- 01:02 PM               

Von Ruoff sorry just a couple things i want to mention.

I'm not continuing the argument (at least i don't think so)

HH- "I really enjoyed posting here back when the sim was new, and perhaps I was more in tune with the people."

I don't see a big difference between when this board first started and how it is now. We always argued and we probly always will. Nothing wrong with that. What ever though. I guess you will just hear about new planes and such online and never be able to help anyone asking questions on this board.

About formation flying. I'm all for that and if you consider someone trying to learn better acm and such then i would be hard core but i for damn sure ain't going to stop eating my candy while i fly online. hehe.

The problem with formation flying is the built in lag of online flying in SDOE. That makes it a little harder to use formation and wing man tactics.

Not useless but less effective. Not much we can do about that until everyone is on high speed connections and we can adjust those settings in the ini to better reflect how it really was.

posted 02-25- 01:09 PM               

Sorry my mistake. I thought you said when this board was new. not when the sim was new.

I didn't fly SDOE online when it first came out just offline. Actually i never thought of flying online at the time. SDOE was my first and pretty much still my only Flight sim i fly online.

And I never saw the forum. I think Mad Dog stumbled on the online flying and petes message board in aug 99.

posted 02-25- 01:20 PM               

Sure. Why not You can fly tarred and feathered as long as you want to learn your hardcore. hehe

posted 02-25- 01:25 PM               

That, and the feathers get in my coffee...

:-)

posted 02-25- 01:26 PM               

Ya know what Sand.

Your not hardcore until your a Pilot.

posted 02-25- 01:31 PM               

"'Not all fighter pilots fly fighters.' Being a fighter pilot is not a thing you do -- it is an attitude."

cheers
sand

posted 02-25- 01:48 PM               

To wit, the question is not whether you fly Fighter Ace or Aces High, or whether you think Novalogic jet sims "suck" and Jane's jet sims are "realistic," but how much "work" you put into the different sims, and how seriously you take YOURSELF when you play them.

When I fly Warbirds, it's pretty much no-nonsense (most of the time) because that sim "feels like flying," the other players practice and fly somewhat seriously, and the sim itself is attempting to simulate a quasi-realistic combat environment. When I fly X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, I fly around and blow stuff up. I don't get bent out of shape when that Y-Wing pulls some kind of JC manuever and takes off my left solar panel. OTOH, when I run myself out of energy and snap roll into the ground because I stayed too long in a turnfight with a Warbirds Spitfire, I get just a bit peeved at myself

That doesn't mean I would ONLY fly Falcon 4 or Warbirds and NEVER fly Novalogic MiG-29 or SWOTL. But it does mean that I don't really give a rat's patoot about "winning" in a game like Fighter Ace, where there is no effort made to simulate realistic combat flying, where I WOULD make the effort to master a game like Falcon 4, where much of the challenge of real flying is built in. I would still play both games, but my attitude and approach to each would be very different.

Guys who "pooh-pooh" any game that doesn't have "proper" energy bleed or "realistic" snap rolls are, well, a bit TOO hardcore IMHO. At the same time, guys who aren't interested in ANY increased degree of realism and "difficulty" aren't really flight simmers, but flying GAMERS. No value judgement implied there, and I like the Wing Commander games as much as any hardcore sim I've played.

There are games, and there are sims. I PLAY games, and I FLY sims. YMMV

posted 02-25- 01:48 PM               

Not sure if you got what i meant. I ment your still a cadet. hehee. Need more posts.