"Advanced" Damage-modelling ...

FSIC Messageboard

SDOE General

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Author	Topic: "Advanced" Damage-modelling ...
Zurawski Pilot	posted 02-21- 11:08 AM OK ... here's my train fo thought on this .. As so far all "user-made" planes have mirrored the damage-modelling of the original planes ... I wonder if there is a reason we could not "elaborate" on the damage-modeling? What I mean is ... a fighter has something like 10 to 12 "parts" that can be blown-off or damaged to explode ... ... Any reason we could not ... say ... bump that number up to 15 to 20? Thinking ... Fusalages: now = 2 to 3 "advanced" = 4 to 6 Wings: Now = 4 "advanced" = 8 Canopy: now = 0 "advanced" = 1 ... and so on ... Basicly this would create a higher degree of "possible" damage results (I'm thinking the damage "numbers could be ironed out whith this also...) Thoughts? [This message has been edited by Zurawski (edited 02-21-2000).] IP: Logged
Elric Pilot	posted 02-21- 11:51 AM I can think of why not to do this; just think of the extra overhead for all the CInteria object and not to mention the airfoils... Surely what need to do is what Sv and the demo Fokker use i.e. swapping in different models at different ObDamage levels, you could and a randomness to this to make it more interesting ( obProb? ) My thoughts, Elric IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 02-21- 01:00 PM Spanky here.. Yeah i wanted to try this and was wondering if it would slow the game down much. I also thinking it could make stuff harder to make and tune. Doesn't each section of the wing have its own airfoil? and don't you need to adjust them indepenently to tune the plane? wouldn't 2xs as many be a HUGE hassle? Maybe if we could adjust the airfoil over all with one # it would be much better for tuning and building. IP: Logged
Jetlag Pilot	posted 02-21- 01:12 PM I would love to see this in action. Why not take the P51 as a start and try some offline/online missions to see how much perfomance degradation occurs? I managed to make the rudder 'fall-offable' on the P51, but it didn't affect the handling one jot. But then I don't know what I'm doing You can count me in for testing for sure! ------------------ Jagdverband 44 IP: Logged
Yardstick Pilot	posted 02-21- 01:20 PM A subject close to my heart and SDOE's last great short coming. Count me in on any work. ------------------ Yardstick painted this IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 02-21- 01:24 PM Elric, I tried obProb a while ago and I could not get it to work, but I barely understood prop lists back then - I need to try again. obProb would be really cool, I think TS mentioned this idea a while ago... more randomness in the DM... I bet this would "mix things up" a bit ------------------ -Sv =FC= WWI in SDOE! IP: Logged
Captain CanucK Pilot	posted 02-21- 01:31 PM This may be going a teeny bit off topic, however it does relate to damaging... I'm sure all of you have noticed that regardless of if you hit an aircraft with a .303 or a 30mm round, the amount of debris that flys off is the exact same. Now, this amount of debris looks about right for the cannon rounds, however I'm sure a .303 would not knock off the same amount. It looks rather silly when you pump hundreds of .303 rounds into a bomber, with a steady line of thick debris trailing the aircraft... sometimes it seems as if enough debris has fallen off to create an entire new aircraft =) Also, the splash effect of the impact of the .303 rounds seem a bit too big. Does anyone know if it is possible to make the splash effect and the amount of debris specific to the type of round? Any thoughts are appreicated ------------------ -Capt. CanucK 166 Bulldog Sqn, RCAC IP: Logged
bjorn Pilot	posted 02-21- 01:47 PM obProb is one of the things on the Spit IX I'm fairly satisfied with (there are a number I'm not.) Check what happens when the left wing tip is damaged, and check the cockpit for functions for the altimeter and airspeed indicator. I think obProb is something that should be used a lot more than it is. One thing I had in mind for the IX was to have a certain probability that damage to the wing root would render the gear useless, but I never got model replacement to work and had no template to work from. Now that Sv has begun using model replacement there's a chance again. _ /Bjorn. IP: Logged
Whirlwind Pilot	posted 02-21- 03:34 PM The Staaken is going to use 3 wing parts per side on the lower wing, and 2 per side plus a center piece for the upper wing. Aside from being a biatch to reassemble, coming up with likely wing area sizes per section is also a pain. The body formerly was 3 sections (nose, large middle secton, and tail) but I realized that it would be a rare event to seperate the middle two chunks in a fire fight or crash. One thing I did come to terms on is the possibility of having panels blown off of WWII birds when they are damaged. If anyone can still find it (I was broke when I saw it) Flight Journal has a special WWII edition out that has about 20 or so cockpit photo's, stats, stories, and warbird post-war junkyards. The last bit made me stop and think about possibly having pannels exploding off the plane and spewing smoke and fire. Aside from being hard to model, you make things easier by getting to avoid those pesk COG's and airFoils... [This message has been edited by Whirlwind (edited 02-21-2000).] IP: Logged
Snake Pilot	posted 02-21- 03:47 PM The big problem is that the small caliber doesn't seem to affect anything. I mean the .303's are practically useless in SDOE. Also the yellow explosion needs a to be adjusted. EAW is cool in this way because you can really see the smoke poc marks and stuff. I think EAW has a better damage model than SDOE. In SDOE if you use the cannon something always gets blown off, the engines rarely catch fire or smoke before the entire wing breaks off. If your dogfighting with the P-38 or FW-190 once you get a good few hits then bye bye bad guy. The wing usually rips off. I'd much prefer flames and smoke early on and then catastrophic failures. The panels idea is really good. Snake [This message has been edited by Snake (edited 02-21-2000).] IP: Logged
Elric Pilot	posted 02-21- 05:25 PM Sv, I used ObProb on the pp5.2 mossie engines, have a look. I think mixing obProb and obModels could produce a really cool DM, but of course you have to do the work first :-{ Captain Canuck, I think the debris and flash effects are hard coded into the game engine, although I could be wrong. My other thoughts on DM's/ things I would like to see ... How about modeling fuel tanks and ammo panels properly, i.e. Take a wing section for example, it may hold a machine gun and fuel tank, but the fuel tank is usually just the whole model in SDOE, so why not add the fuel tank as a child model of the that wing section and give it a lod and obBodypts, cut out the hole in the wing log where it should be and if the fuel tank poly get hit it should do some serious fireworks. On the same theme, model an ammo cover that detachs and unhides a draggy airfoil... Up the Obhits on the wing section but make fuel tank hits more dangerous. I've seen quite a few pics of downed planes where the airframe is riddled with bullets, but you have to hit the right spot to bring a plane down. Elric IP: Logged
mposis Pilot	posted 02-21- 05:37 PM Zurawski, With what you are suggesting the polygon count of each plane will double. It will also double the amount of work to do the plane. IP: Logged
kopper JAG	posted 02-21- 05:55 PM We have a DM project going now. The first step is to create a more balanced damage model in relation to other planes and ammo such as the 20mm and 30mm MINE rounds. The DM obhit values we are using is based on the combined research of a/c damage studies of several individuals done over 25 years. ------------------ Kopper Fortunae Nihil (Nothing to Chance) OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place. One plane at a time. IP: Logged
Spyder Pilot	posted 02-21- 05:57 PM This may be fine for all fighter missions, with lag/bomb bug/ground unit bug etc I think this will bury bomber missions. Maybe something can be done to increase the fps first before bringing it down again? ------------------ IP: Logged
Jv44~Siggi Pilot	posted 02-21- 07:47 PM Guys, I don't mean to pour cold water but you should remember that the basic code for this sim was never of the ultra-detailed variety. A lot of very basic stuff was totally left out, stuff like engine overheat, damageable flaps, head armor etc etc. I would LOVE to see MH's damage-patch see the light of day, never mind a more complex DM and realistic impact-flashes etc. It's going to break a lot of guys hearts, and it isn't 'fair', but I suspect that when B17-2 hits the shelves this sim will lose the majority of it's dedicated followers. We all love this sim but we should be realistic...it's badly flawed, despite it's greatness, and the work needed to make it truly worthy of serious on-line play is beyond the hard-worked abilities of our guys to achieve. In my humble opinion. But I would dearly like to be proved wrong. NB. For those who would now like to rip me a new arsehole, I did the Japanese Nations radio wavs. Not boasting, just employing that fact as a shield against those who would otherwise say "all you do is whine and denigrate". Olay! IP: Logged
Private Roger Pilot	posted 02-21- 08:00 PM Siggi I was right with you on B17II many months ago, but I have changd my view somewhat, and here's why. When B17II comes out your right, many people will flock to it. Beautiful graphics, great damage modelling, interactive crew members, etc. Here's the problem...it has a limited number of aircraft modelled, and unlike SDOE, there doesn't seem to be a way to add more by the user community. Add to that the fact that Wayward has been sold, and Micro Prose has announced no further planes for Flight Sims and you get a game that is, what it is, and maybe nothing more. What it is may be great! and I will surely be a buyer, but it's limitations will send many flyers back to what they love, and what they love is often variety....Mossie's, Ju88's, B25's, Zero's, Corsairs, Spitfires, Typhoons, Tempest's, Bf109's, etc, etc. Don't sound the death knell for SDOE yet, it may have some life in it yet, especially when you add MH's new Pacific Theatre sim onto it. Of course as always, I could be wrong. PR=FC= [This message has been edited by Private Roger (edited 02-21-2000).] IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 02-21- 08:16 PM What? There will be WWI planes in B-17 II?!? -Sv IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 02-21- 11:23 PM Spanky here.. B17-II COULD be good. I will find out when i play it and no sooner. Will B17-2 have a member of the development team supporting it after the release? 1 year after the release? will there be a plane building contest? Can you add to it easily? Was it meant to do that or will they be hacks? I might fly it but SDOE is my dream come true. Hope fully it will be come more powerfull as time goes by and new openplane sims come out. You guys know we will probly end up borrowing stuff from the rc sim. THen with sdoe 2 pac it will grow again. IP: Logged
Tailslide Pilot	posted 02-22- 02:10 AM I have an idea thats easy to implement. Come up with a good damage model for radial engines and one for inline engines and just paste the damage model into every plane in the game. Probabilities for fire, smoke, explosion, coolant leak, oil leak, radiator leak, etc.. Elric and Pang already have some improved engine damage models.. get them as good as we can and put them on all the planes. Tweak to account for planes that had extinguisher systems, armour etc.. TS ------------------ ________________________ TS Aircombat IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 02-22- 03:23 AM Spanky here.. yep thats a great idea. I thought someone already had this. Except it was supposed to be standard parts. We could have a whole library of parts. guns and cannons cockpits engines turrets canopys they would all need to be tweaked but you would be able to start with somthing other then a plane already made start with the fuse that is closest and the wings and tail feathers and then pick the right gear and cockpit heheh like building lego with wood blocks and then carving them to the right shape a small parts library with just engines and guns to start would be a great way to start streamlining the process. IP: Logged
juzz Pilot	posted 02-22- 08:28 AM Actually Siggi, I think Il-2 has more potential to get the attentions of the "SDOE faithful". But you forget that no one can ever leave SDOE, once they're in it's forever! IP: Logged
LLv34_Camouflage Pilot	posted 02-22- 09:04 AM Yep, IL-2 is the one I'm looking forward to! il2.sim-arena.com Camo IP: Logged
Whirlwind Pilot	posted 02-22- 10:12 AM I'm trying to get my radiators to smoke when they take damage and affect engine performance. I'll test them just as soon as I get these darn 'pitch DOF's to work properly. Everybody is thinking we need to add 6 gazzilion panels and everything to the model to simulate damage, I'm just talking about 5-6 per plane (oooo a big honkin 10 more faces). I just need to find out whether obHidden stuff can take damage, so the fuel tank thing will work. I've preordered B-17II, but I don't think it will be as prevelant on my HD as SDOE currently is, despite my OpenPlane love-hate relationship (I love to hate it, and I hate to love it). IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 02-22- 11:11 AM obHidden object do take damage. However I think that objects inside of the fuselage for example will not get hits - the fuse polys will protect them. So be sure your hidden fuel tank is slightly larger than the fuselage so it sticks out a bit. At least I think this is the case... -Sv IP: Logged
Raider Pilot	posted 02-22- 12:21 PM Whirlwind, I will send you the alpha of the Fokker DVII that Zoycite and I are working on. It has raidator, oil pan, fuel cell, Cylinder Heads that all take damage in different ways and send it to the engine. White smoke when the radiator is hit and engine starts to lose power Fire under plane when oil pan is hit / plane loses power until engine dies in a couple of minutes. You get the idea. I will send it to you later today. Raider {GS} IP: Logged
Whirlwind Pilot	posted 02-22- 03:04 PM I'll greenlight that move, Raider. Send away! The funny thing is, the engine locations for the Staaken are such to take out the reare engines, you have a 3 AOA, and since the front two (combined to 1 engine, 2xhorsepower, 1xRPM) engines are burried deep in the nose, there isn't a chance to really take on down. I will probably add two 'boxes' to allow the front engine a bit more of a window of opportunity to take them out. There probably won't be any flaming pannels on the Staaknen, but once I get the Viper around, I'll try it with it. IP: Logged
Michael Harrison General	posted 02-23- 06:56 AM guys, don't forget the method of showing damage by model replacement. The Fokker that went out with the OpenPlane demo replaces entire models as damage happens. If I remember correctly, sv has improved on the behavior. While this does increase the work you have to do, remember that nothing's for free IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 02-23- 09:34 AM bjorn, I got model replacement to work easier because I start with the Fokker as a base. Since it all ready does this it is easy to add/subtract from the models used. I think the key point are this: Models that are to be used for damage replacement need to live above the root level of the aircraft - I think this is refered to as the "closet" or something. This is where the propFast and shadows are. Now the Fokker uses as seperate referenced SM file to hold all of these models - this helps keep things organized, but I am not sure it is a requirement - I doubt that it is. Also note that the where these damage models show up in OPS is of no consequence. It turns out that the Fokker damage models all line up to make a whole Fokker! But what freaked my out was that this whole seperate Fokker plane was positioned abouot 2 or 3 feet up and to the side! The trick is position is meaningless. What I do is simply copy a model, like a wing, from the normal plane to the references damage SM file. Now give it a new name - MAKE SURE the new names have your plane name in them, or something to keep them unique from other planes in the game. Now remove ALL properties off of the model - these would never be used. If they were used, well that would be something! Is there any way to do something like this? Now just set up the real wing part to use the models 'LWingDmg or whatever you called it. When the model is replaced, the origin and orientation of the damaged model will match the origin and orientation of the model it replaces. Juts think of it like this: It is just a mesh substitution, instead of using one LOD file it uses another. Cool stuff we can do with this: Update the texture to show bullet holes, fire damage, etc. This is done now on my planes and the Fokker that comes with the OpenPlane demo. Change the actual mesh of the part to make it look mangled, show holes in the skin (see through!), etc. I wanna see ribs someday... that would be cool! I might try to make my Fokker DVIII damaged fuselage be a 3d model showing all of the truss work and stuff so it looks like the fabric is torn off... we'll see. Also if ya wanna get real detailed there is no reason not to create a Damage 1 model that shows a few bullet holes, and then a damage 2 model that shows more holes AND fire damage. Then have this model traded in at the same time that you attach fire to the part... Combine this with obProb stuff and your plane takes on a whole new life... None of this hurts FPS, like MH says though.. it does take allot of work. But it is fun work! Much more fun than working 8 hours trying to get the AI to use the elevator on your Albatros ------------------ -Sv =FC= WWI in SDOE! IP: Logged
Spanky the Mad Dog Pilot	posted 02-23- 09:41 AM Spanky here... Yeah i didn't think you would see much of a FPS slow down. Not by just adding some more parts that can come off anyway. Some of this stuff sounds great. IP: Logged
bjorn Pilot	posted 02-23- 12:37 PM Thanks Sv! I'll try this tonight. You say properties, if defined, aren't used. What about DOFs? I'd like to replace one model with another that has different DOFs. _ /Bjorn. IP: Logged
Sv Pilot	posted 02-23- 01:16 PM Nope, no DOFS - just the mesh. As far as I know -Sv IP: Logged
enrico Cadet	posted 02-23- 02:53 PM Hi all, by first, my best compliments to all who worked on plane pack 5.3 and on all other things (WWI planes, etc.). Then, a question regarding DM (I don't know anything about LODS, DOFS, etc., so what i'm going to ask may be completely nonsense): would it be possible to assign damages to parts like gears, flaps, elevators, wing cannons, fuel tanks, on the basis of a probability? I mean, whenever a bullet hits a wing, there's a X % probability that a cannon, OR the aileron, ecc. gets damaged. On this bases, in principle, say an aileron could be damaged by only one bullets (a very lucky shot, corresponding to truncate a cable) and not damaged by tens of hits. More, there would be no need to construct an aileron, wing cannon, etc. which can recognize damage themselves, that, if i understand correctly, is a bit difficult to manage. Cya all! IP: Logged
bjorn Pilot	posted 02-23- 02:57 PM Enrico, yes, that is possible. I think you'll see plenty of it soon :-) _ /Bjorn. IP: Logged
bjorn Pilot	posted 02-23- 03:17 PM Sv, arrrggg. No DOFs!? Rats. Rats rats rats. Rats rats (repeat and fade.) _ /Bjorn. IP: Logged

All times are CT (US)	next newest topic \| next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Close Topic \| Archive/Move \| Delete Topic
	Hop to:

Contact Us | Fighter Squadron Information Center