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Author
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Topic: Instead of "Alt V"
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Private Roger
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 05:37 AM
   
I don't know how much merit this idea has. I was reading from another thread about the next WWII sim form MH & Company, and someone, SV maybe, commented how nice it would be to have the little reflection of light off the approaching planes canopy as a way of spotting aircraft. This is feature Mig Alley and a few other sims have. While I know that is not an option with SDOE, could we have another option besides Alt V where we are shown the info on the planes etc. Maybe "Alt N" and that would give us just a red, or green "dot" just enough to see the target, but not all the info which often obscures the plane, and (IMHO) takes away a little from the immersion factor. Just some random thoughts early in Dallas. 
PR=FC=
[This message has been edited by Private Roger (edited 02-08-2000).] IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 08:54 AM
Spanky here.. Yeah that would be pretty good
just one red or green pixel. Kind of inbettween full help and no help at all. inbettween beginner and crazy hardcore hehe
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LLv34_Camouflage
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 09:26 AM
I would go for WB/AH type icons, which show the plane type and range. The current icon shows speed, which is a bit stupid, imho...Even better, have customizable icons like EAW, and a host option to it, so that all players can be forced to use one type of icons. Also the range where the icons pop up should be customized. That would really make for some interesting fights I don't know if it is possible to get this into SDOE, but probably not. Unfortunately...  Camo IP: Logged |
Falck
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 09:32 AM
Most important, imho, is to hide the label when its obscured by a LOD. That and to only be able to padlock something thats in your current field of view ala Falcon4IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 09:42 AM
SPanky here... Ya know what guys? We could do the green dot type of thing right now i think. Couldn't we just make the lowest detail LOD a box a little smaller then the plane flat shaded red? So at a far distance a plane would look like a red dot? I'm talking juts when it is really far away and it would just be a black dot. Just to enhance the spotting at far distances. You wouldn't be able to have a red and green dot but people in real life can't tell the friendlys from the baddies at far distances.
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Falck
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 09:45 AM
I was just thinking that but I erased it from my post I dont think that would be the best implementation, since it wouldnt be optional. IP: Logged |
LLv34_Camouflage
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 10:17 AM
Spanky, sounds like a great idea! One of the biggest reasons why some of my squadmates gave up SDOE was the poor visibility of distant planes. This might be a possible solution!Any plane wizard care to try it?  Falck, yep, I would prefer limited padlock and obscured labels too. But I won't hold my breath... Camo IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 10:55 AM
Spanky here.. Yeah thats a point it wouldn't be selectable
that kinda sucks. Lets see what some other people think
People???????
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Raider
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 11:23 AM
Spanky, Great idea. In real life when you see a plane 5 or 10 miles away, you can not make out what type of plane it is. If the lod was just a black square that could be seen from a great distance (as fare as your fog setting) it would be realistic. You could use a larger square for larger planes (Bombers) You would not be able to see it if it was behind a cloud or out of view (below or behind you) This should not be an option. It should only add to the realism and not hamper anyone. If you want more info or detail hit Alt V for an option. Raider {GS}
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Sv
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 11:24 AM
Spanky,It would need to be bigger than the plane. If it was smaller this would hinder visabilty. I would say you might need a square 2 to 3 times bigger than the plane. The square could rotate slowly so it apears to blink in and out of view from far away. THis LOD would have a high detail LOD that was blank. Well? I have thought about this.... -Sv IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 12:09 PM
Spanky here... K a box the same size as the plane but i wouldn't say bigger. Wouldn't that just be cheating? Maybe just a bit i guess but i would like to get the whole communitys thoughts. How do you make it spin? "THis LOD would have a high detail LOD that was blank." Why not just make the lowest level lod for the fuse this huge cube? Or maybe it wouldn't be a cube hehe. Call me CPU cycle crazy but why not a 3 poly asterix? kinda thing. I'll have to make it and post it maybe. IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 01:08 PM
I can see the SDOE planes from far off.. they look like dots and they sort of flicker between white and black. The floating green numbers in AH drive me buggy.. TS IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 01:11 PM
There needs to be 2 levels: one that is invisable and seen at normal distances, and 1 that is only seen from VERY far away that would be a flat poly that rotates slowly.It is not really cheating, well not as much as using ID tags at least. The goal WOULD be to make the planes easier to see, but not so obvious as big tags. It might take polys 10 times bigger than the plane to get the desired results - it depends how far away you want to be able to see the plane... I would think this is just for fun to see how it works, I would never imagine that everyone would want to do something like this.. the real answer is to implement some code-level solution. But this would be cool for kicks - see how fun it is or isn't... -Sv IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 01:54 PM
SV i don't know about 10 times as big just somthing a little bigger. 10 times would definatly be cheating in my book. I still don't know why you want to make an invisible one at close distance and one that kicks in at far distances. Why not just make the LOD5 a huge poly on the fuse lods? and why a flat poly? wouldn't it not help at all when you where looking at it from the edge? IP: Logged |
Jerry
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 01:59 PM
Right now you can pick up the dots at about 2 miles, bombers a little further, if they're right in front of you.....try and spot one two miles away behind you. IMO a visual aid to pick them up further than 2 miles would be more realistic. The more realistic to our eyes the less we need to rely on padlock, maps, and radar to find EA. WWII pilots were vectored to an area by radio if they were close to home but still had to find the EA visually. Away from radar it was all visual. In WWI it was visual from the time they took off. So anything we can do to make distant planes visible within the limitations of human eyesight would increase immersion...IMHO. IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 02:15 PM
With padlock you can pick them up anywhere.. below you, behind you, in a cloud, behind a hill. I don't mind not having radio vectors as long as the other guy doesn't either. The magic map and padlock are just too much for me to want additional help IMHO It would make sense to have the objects visible while they are within padlock range but then people running at high resolutions will see them really far off unless we replace the plane with invisible LODs after a certain distance. TS
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Loco
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 02:16 PM
Hi fellows,I think We need customized icons, since a little box until more detailed information, like we have in WB or EAW.
But the idea of to use LODs isnīt bad.
For me, a little box showing a far plane would be nice, mainly because in some missions the screen is full of red boxes/labels and I doesnīt like this. IP: Logged |
JT
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 02:27 PM
I think a large cube with two or three sides missing and the other sides completely white, slowly rotating around planes that are very far away would be the best solution. There has to be an element of randomness to this, since planes only glint when some surface catches the light just right. If the cube has some sides missing, then there will be instances when you don't see it... and that's good, because it randomizes the chances of seeing the glinty dot a bit. It shouldn't just be something to beef up the planes at a distance. [This message has been edited by JT (edited 02-08-2000).] IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 02:49 PM
That's brilliant JT ! It could be a seperate part of the plane with the switch-in distances set far away.. it would look like sun flashes. TS
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Jerry
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 03:00 PM
Does anyone know how far away the AI can detect you? Is it a variable based on agressiveness or some other controllable?IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 03:23 PM
Agreed Jt, TS - that was my train of thought - I like the sun-gleam idea best.The cube with missing sides sounds real good. The combination of this cube slowly rotating and the plane changing direciton should result with a sun-gleam-kinda thing happening. If we can see planes better then we won't need padlock Spanky - and even if we make the cube 20 times the plane size it will still be smaller then the id tags by far.. I think. It matters on how far you switch in the non-existant LOD. BTW Spanky, we need the non-existand LOD or you will see a huge cube around the plane at all times... we only want to see it when the plane is so far away that it is more or less invisable - at this rane the cube will look like a splash of light - a couple of pixels - just so you can get the bearing - then remember where you saw it, cause it might disappear for a while!!! Like chasing a fire-fly This may be cool, but how many people like this idea at all? Maybe we should post some screen shots of how we want it to look at various distances. Then we can reach for that goal. -Sv IP: Logged |
JT
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 04:30 PM
This project really sounds like a Pete Hawk project! How about it, Pete!{Chief O'Hara switches on the beacon and a shaft of light projects a hawk onto the clouds of the night sky} IP: Logged |
Mk10 225th
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 05:02 PM
That Tail, I tell ya. Why, I've seen him sex flies at 50 feet! Mk10=225th= IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 05:26 PM
Spanky here... Personally i just want a couple pixels. Flashing wound't be bad either and the couple sides missing sounds great. 2 questions. I still don't see why we need and invisible lod? Why would we see it around the plane at all times? We don't see all the medium and low lever lods when we are close to the plane? AND How are we going to make this cube spin? IP: Logged |
Falck
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 05:58 PM
You may want to start moving this thread to the flame war section now This is something to be done in engine code, not game code. Im not understanding the point of putting a big lod on something far away to make it easier to see. I for one prefer realism and this would completely screw it. If you want tags, fine, but dont screw with the aircraft sm's to accomplish this. I'd even go so far as to say an arrow on the front view pointing to nearby aircraft would be preferable to this. One reason SDOE lacks support from the flight sim community in general is due to its perceived lack of realism. Dont go and hose it more by putting in a feature like this that wouldnt even be optional. The best way to achieve a glimmer effect is to use the angles between the sun, the normal of the enemy aircraft lod, and your point of view. As we dont have a sun yet this wouldnt be possible, but Im ever-hoping.
[This message has been edited by Falck (edited 02-08-2000).] IP: Logged |
Sv
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 06:00 PM
We don't see the low-level LODS up close because they are replaced with the high detail LODS. The same thing happens here, but in this case the high detail LOD is blank.Moving the cube is simple, just like Pete moves the balloon - a looping DOF -Sv IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 06:21 PM
Spanky here... SV exactly the cube would be replaced by the higher detail fuses. Anyway it doesn't matter how its done. Falck. I don't want a cheat i just want to be able to see a plane as far as i can in real life. Anyone know how far the average human can see a plane? A fighter not 747. I just want a couple pixels. Maybe we already see that but i don't think so. I think the res of our monitors is limiting our sight.
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Private Roger
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 06:22 PM
Wow, when I posted this orignally this morning I had no idea it would get this much attention. I guess I should have since I think we are all basically after the same thing. To make our sim as user friendly as possible, without losing the realism.I was just hoping for less screen clutter my self. At least an option to turn off all the neon colored text associated with targets, and yet still be able to spot them within a resonable and realistic distance. If this could be accomplished with the random flashing simulating the glint of light off a canopy...super, if not I thought maybe just a simple "dot". Thats just me though. Obviously we have alot of views on this. Looks like something could be done. It would be nice if they were user options, that could also be decided my the mission host in online games, much like regen etc. I'm enjoying the debate. PR=FC= IP: Logged |
Werner Molders
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 06:54 PM
Here's a wild question for ya: How did the REAL pilots do it before the dawn of plane-mounted radar? I know during the BoB ranges and vectors were radioed to pilots by land-based radar stations, but I mean, when you're cruising along on CAP, how did the real guys know a 109 was about to chew up their tailfeathers? I'm fearful the answer is improved situational awareness (and without wrap-around screens that isn't much of a possibility), but surely there is a way to do this that won't perpetuate the (groundless, imo) realism debate.My 2 cents. Werner ------------------
Do you support SDOE online? Email Werner to be listed in SDOE's online phonebook today! IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 06:56 PM
I agree with Falck and Spanky to some extent. I think it should be possible to have a tiny realistic twinkling in the distance without having it look like some kind of superimposed artificial wussy-hud thing though As far as ray tracing the light from the sun to the shiny parts of the plane and back to your eye for all the objects within 10 miles I'm not holding my breath
TS
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Pete Hawk
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 07:03 PM
Guys how about this. JT is right, I can do this up in the twinkling of a pixel It's a piece of cake really. I'll make up a plane (flat rectangular surface) with a nice "shiny" mirror type texture that switches in only on extreme distances. It'll rotate slowly enough that you can't just see it and go "YEAH! THERE HE IS! SEE THAT CONTINUOUS BEACON?" It'll be more like a quick flicker, and then maybe not for another minute you'll see another one. It could be a ONE SIDED object, flat, with some shinyness, or even just a very bright white. Sound good? IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 07:28 PM
Well, unfortunately, many times the way pilots found out they had a bogey was by seeing tracer whip by..... Perhaps Padlock at 10 miles is extreme, I would like to see that dropped, but here are a couple of things to remember... first, those with the fastest computers and fog pushed back will see the plane first.
Many times, the "Twinkling" canopy actually helped to hide the plane depending on where the sun was....
I agree with clouds losing P/L. That makes sense and happened all the time.
I would prefer to see the labels modified. It would be best if they could be made customizable by the host. Working the same way in a offline game.
One major point about realism...... if we are looking for realism, lets also take all the round canopies and add some really bad distortion to the views. That way only with the flat windows will you be able to see correctly. It is a well known fact that the bubble canopies do some VERY odd things to perspective. Many aircraft had flat panels to look out of so they could eliminate this problem... our canopies are perfect right now, perfect visiblity. I don't see anyone campaigning for reduced visibility.....
There are going to be some things that are designed to help us with S/A that I don't think really detract that much since we don't have the ability to recreate all the options of reality. I would like to see a breakable padlock and custom tags... that would help alot, while providing a middle ground for those of us that like the other tools.....
Just my opinion....
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Mirthain=FC=
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Sv
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 07:32 PM
Pete,There is no such thing as shinniness in SDOE, right? We just need a bright white or bright difused color... Also Pete, how could you get a quick flash? Maybe you mean like this: Start with the LOD vertical, then wait 5 seconds, then flip horizontal, then wait 8 seconds, then flip to another off-axis position. Then repeat. Spanky, The problem with switching to the fuselege LOD close up is only because of the spinning issue - if this LOD spins then the fuselege would spin - to avoid this we can just use a seperate LOD To me it is the lesser of two evils to see the planes a bit to big at very far distances than to use the ID tags. ID tags meake a mess and are WAY to big. It is fun to know who you are shooting at, or in my case, who is shooting at you  I would not want to see what MCFS does though - scale the planes up at all distances - so they look bigger even when you can make out that it is a plane. I would just like some realistic hope of finding an enemy if I spend 20 minuyes on-line, even if that means a little cheating... let's face it - how many no-hud missions are flown on-line now? -Sv
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Falck
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 07:34 PM
Tailslide, as for tracking the twinkling:
Assume that it can only be caused by a canopy. Do the ole angle of incidence = angle of reflection from the players view to a surface on the canopy, then if it reflects to the direction of the sun, generate the twinkle. How many surfaces make up the average canopy...10-20? Iterating for each player/canopy till you find it, wouldnt take too many cpu cycles at all. I havent sat down to dot he math but Im sure it can be optimised better than all that iteration anyway IP: Logged |
sparkyfc
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 08:02 PM
Heya all, Well i agree with everything but one: The padlock view! I prefer this type of padlock view. I can't keep track of a plane and fly mine if i try to use the view keys, I'll crash:-(. How about keeping the padlock view with some minor changes, such as: only be able to padlock up to 2 miles out, and if u lose the other plane behind a hill, house, cloud, etc. then u lose the padlock and u have to re-target the plane. Just a couple ideas for ya'll to think about. Thnx:-) ------------------
Sparky=FC= IP: Logged |
Spyder
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 09:16 PM
yeah it would be nice to see the planes slightly bigger, Mk and I were discussing this yesterday.
When you takeoff the trees still have plenty of size/definition but the planes pale into nothing quick time.
Probably need a slightly larger lod for the first mile or so.
It's hard to get everyone to like flying without the Hud, even when you explain that you can find each other with the padlock.
Bigger lods, no id's. Get rid of arcade mode.
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Rattler
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 09:37 PM
Dale "Hitech" Addink added the sparkling dot
to Warbirds shortly after 3D was implemented.
This was to increase long range spotting of aircraft in the Historical(limited neon icon range)Arena.
It Worked GREAT.
As it stands now in SDoE Online play,we can turn off the HUD,but not the Magical Map.
My experience with HUD OFF online SDoE was a
good one except 2 problems.
The Shortened(Unrealistic handicap of monitors) spotting range,which you gents seem to have a great idea for!, and ID'ing the aircraft - enemy or allie. This is where we may have an oportunity to make 2 different
types of flicker(speed or color?)
Allied Aircraft one type
and Axis another?This would enhance Online Realism.The map is
not that big of an issue as it doesn't give altitude away or a real sense of good distance. I've never depended on padlock,I was home grown on the Old Airwarrior/Warbirds view system. My personal opinion of Padlock is its
a cheat...... sorry. I know it would be lost with HUD OFF, but so much could be gained.
And we could finally use the "Best Clouds in a Simulation" to there intended advantage.
Rattler IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 02-08- 10:33 PM
I like not being able to ID planes until you get closer. I've read about enemy planes actually slipping into the landing circuit or even a flying formation, slowly working through the escort and blasting away a bomber before anyone realized they weren't a friendly. Hard to do with a colored "bad guy here" dot over top of you. Some sims magnify the size of the planes, when you approach each other headon it makes it WAAAY to easy to get headon hits. SDOE is great.. you see a dot, closing speed 800 mph, next thing you know you can make out it's an enemy then a second to fire before they go screaming past. Even attacking bombers in WW2 there was only a couple seconds effective firing window since the closing speeds were so high. TS
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________________________
TS Aircombat
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Sv
Pilot
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posted 02-09- 05:41 AM
Not only canopies reflect the light- bright metal would too. Even for WWI planes - it's not so much a bright flash as a brighter than normal refection off of the surface of a wing or something... I think the end goal is to allow you to get a general bearing on a distant enemy - as opposed to a homing beacon -Sv IP: Logged |
Spanky the Mad Dog
Pilot
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posted 02-09- 06:09 AM
Spanky here... Just want to straighten somthing out for people. At the moment we can't touch the source code which means we can't make any of this stuff an option. We can't: have customizable icons like EAW only be able to padlock something thats in your current field of view ala Falcon4 a glimmer effect is to use the angles between the sun, the normal of the enemy aircraft lod, and your point of view a breakable padlock and custom tags... that would help alot keeping the padlock view with some minor changes, such as: only be able to padlock up to 2 miles out, and if u lose the other plane behind a hill, house, cloud, etc. then u lose the padlock and u have to re-target the plane I know most of you guys already know this. But maybe some people don't. I think a spining cube or couple poly lod is the best we are going to do. Cause if MH doesn't have the time to put out the patch i can't see him putting out a patch with one of these ideas in it. As much as i like them. Besides he has to save some stuff for the next sim doesn't he?
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