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Author
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Topic: Historic Bomber to fighter survival ratio
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kopper
JAG
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posted 01-18- 01:19 PM
   
Here is a summary of information from the 429 RCAF (B) Sqn concerning encounters with enemy fighters from June 1944 to April 1945:During this time 429 Sqn lost 21 bombers (no details as to whether they were fighters/flak/collisions,etc) There were a total of 56 encounters with enemy aircraft reported by aircrews of 429 Sqn The aircrews of 429 Sqn claimed 4 destoryed, 5 probables and 2 damaged. We will make an assumption that all 21 bombers were lost by night fighters. This would mean that the night fighters were successful only 21 of 77 times. Therefore as a bomber you stood a 27% chance of being shot down if you encountered an enemy fighter. In SDOE I think I have been shot down about 97% of the time I have encountered an enemy fighter. ------------------
Kopper
Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time. IP: Logged |
Stark
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 01:31 PM
Well yeah Kopper, but that's because were all suicidal and arent gonna let you get away no matter what!!  -Stark IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 01:56 PM
Last I checked it's daytime in SDOE although that's debatable without a sun 
IP: Logged |
kopper
JAG
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posted 01-18- 02:01 PM
Even the fighter to bomber encounters in daylight were not as high as 95%!
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Kopper
Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time. IP: Logged |
rattlesnake
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 03:01 PM
Kopper -Put away your scientific calculator and take a look at those numbers again. ------------------
-=BAB=- Rattlesnake
Bad Ass Bulldogs
http://www.oldpostoffice.com/badass IP: Logged |
Whirlwind
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 03:43 PM
More often than not, BC had the latest anti-radar technology in their planes, that it is night and both sides can not readily see each other. Whereas in SDOE, it is day, there rarely are enough bombers to offer much 'box' coverage, and in SDOE, I've seen 3 bombers wipe out nearly 3 waves of 6 fighters each in seconds, with only 1 bomber down, 2 damaged...21/56 = about 37.5% IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 03:47 PM
I agree it would be much easier to evade in the dark. How many of those contacts wound up with the attacker getting shot down? The patch will help, not having enemy icons in the map view. I have pretty good luck in the bombers, I survive more missions than not.. TS IP: Logged |
Yardstick
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 04:43 PM
Kopper do you have any survival rate data for single isolated bombers in daylight? Many of the Luftwaffe's tactics were concentrated on causing individual aircraft to drop out of formation. Those that did due to battle damage were invariably swallowed up by the boogie man.SDOE doesn't allow for realistically large formations of bombers to concentrate their defensive fire. One on one against a competent fighter pilot a bomber is dead meat. I think that all those bomber enthusiasts looking forward to B17-II are in for a shock when scores of skilled Luftwaffe pilots cut their little 12 plane formations to ribbons.
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Yardstick painted this
[This message has been edited by Yardstick (edited 01-18-2000).] IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 07:26 PM
Ummmm.... No.. it is almost 50%. You made a mistake and added your number of kills to the number of encounters then divided the total by kills.
According to your data presented, there were 21 kills from 56 encounters. Not 77.
Mirthain=FC=IP: Logged |
Spyder
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 07:37 PM
Another thing is we all know where the bombers are coming from, their size and type, either from the mission description or just by looking at the map.
In the real scenario, even with radar on both sides, scrambling of these aids and other tactics ensured some fighters didn't meet with their objective.
Of course, 4 bombers in sdoe doesn't scare many pilots does it? I think 50+ would be different.
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IP: Logged |
Hawker
Pilot
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posted 01-18- 08:05 PM
I agree the patch with the icons off untill u encounter enemy will help alot,and Tail and I are pretty good bombers and have fended off enemy fighters a couple times.
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kopper
JAG
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posted 01-18- 10:54 PM
The 56 encounters are based on the ones that made it back to talk about it. During the same period 429 sqn lost 21 planes, hence 56 + 21.Tailslide: you do survive most of your encounters. However, spiralling down to ground level and letting the enemy fly into the ground was not a tactic used very much during the war. Works great in SDOE! I don't have any stats for daylight encounters per say. Reason being, most of it is USAAF and that is not my area of expertise. Plus I don't have the books to do the research on it. ------------------
Kopper
Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time. IP: Logged |
Tailslide
Pilot
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posted 01-19- 12:24 AM
Hehe.. the only reason you can do it in SDOE is because the bombers can nose down turn as good as the fighters! If we had more realistic bomber's it would require more realistic tactics. By the time I get to ground level they are pretty shot up by my turret gun / escort and I can fly away not having to worry about the lack of a belly gunner. In a B17 I use other tactics tho since it has no blind spots. TS IP: Logged |
Cpt Farrel
Pilot
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posted 01-19- 04:07 AM
There's one more important thing! (Most important perhaps) When fighterpilots in SDOE are attacking bombers they greatest risk they run is to have to restart the mission or switch planes if they're shot down. In real life needless to say any fighterpilot didn't have that luxuary, and therefore had to be way more careful in his actions. The bottom line is: A simulator can have the most sophisticated FM and DM and whatever you like, but the tactics will always be affected by the fact that simpilots does not risk their lives.
I don't want to star a moral battle or anything these are just plain facts! CheerS! / Cpt Farrel IP: Logged |
juzz
Pilot
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posted 01-19- 05:01 AM
Alot of those encounters would have likely been like this: tail gunner sees German nightfighter, yells on the RT for the pilot to start a corkscrew, and they never see the German fighter again. quote:
I think that all those bomber enthusiasts looking forward to B17-II are in for a shock when scores of skilled Luftwaffe pilots cut their little 12 plane formations to ribbons.
I'm not too sure about that. They reckon now only 24-32 players online. That means 6-10 escorts/interceptors. From the Simhq.com interview it sounds like the B-17 will be very tough to knock down, maybe even too tough... It will depend on the DM specifics, like if spraying the cockpit will mean anything in terms of control damage and crew deaths; or will the waist gunner somehow take the controls and fly on? But I do think, if it is done realistically that it will be quite easy to smash their weeny 12 plane formations. But the escorts have one huge incorrect advantage - they know exactly where the Germans will attack, since there's only 12 planes to cover, not like 120. Then again, the USAAF has the P-51D, P-47D and P-38J, and the Luftwaffe get the Fw190A-8/R7 and Bf109G-6/R6; hardly any good for dogfighting, plus the Me262 and Me163, which fly too fast to aim accurately anyway. [This message has been edited by juzz (edited 01-19-2000).] IP: Logged |
JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-19- 01:48 PM
Juzz, your posts on the B17-2 forum are excellent..cold hard facts instead of some of the other emotive toss being talked by those with a personal agenda.
It seems, in general, that the majority of the allied pilots over there are quite happy with the prospect of a turkey shoot. As soon as they feel that Wayward may take notice of the Axis pilots concerns they start hollering.
The Allied pilots should think ahead and see that the Axis pilots will soon get tired of playing in an online game in which they spend all their time spectating from under a parachute.
No worries..I'm starting to get the feeling from a few Wayward comments that varients will now ship with the game. Nice. IP: Logged |
Mirthain
Pilot
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posted 01-19- 10:30 PM
I hate to nit pick... but that isn't how it works Kopper. If the whole unit reported there were 56 encounters, then that is all there were. Bear in mind what others have posted here... there weren't 2 or 3 planes up at a time. There were 40-50 or more at a time. Therefore, if anyone encountered an enemy aircraft, that counted. If the Germans shot down 2 planes during that encounter, then that still only counts as one encounter. Remember that we are not talking about small unit's here. Carpet bombing was norm. Not the exception. The only exception to your numbers is if this unit did skip bombing. Typically that was only 2-5 aircraft all flying low level and fast, it is possible that a whole flight could be destroyed. That would count. But adding losses to the encounters is not accurate.
Mirthain=FC=IP: Logged |
pops
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 01:23 PM
Juzz & JV44Siggi,I don't want to drag this thread off subject. But, you need to know that the serious followers of B-17 do not think nor do they want it to be a turkey shoot from either side. We hope that it will be balanced enough to warrant an eye gouging ear ripping fight to the very end with a lot of tugging back and forth as tatics are learned about each other's side. This is what we hope will give this sim some legs. The rhetoric between the jocks an the bomber guys is nothing more than that since we haven't got a real good sniff yet. "We now return your television to it's previous channel." ...Twilight Zone 60's...Oh never mind. IP: Logged |
Whirlwind
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 02:03 PM
If I recall, the Lanc won't bleed speed as quick as a FW-190 in SDOE, so a long set of climbinb S's will allow the Lanc to get at least 1,000ft above the 190 in about 5 minutes. Remember my screen shots of the Lanc at 68,000+ feet? I did that while 'dogfighting' a 190 with blancs..IP: Logged |
JV44Siggi
Pilot
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posted 01-20- 04:38 PM
Pops, that's why I said "in general the majority...".
I'm well aware that a number of allied pilots also have voiced misgivings about the lack of vLW variants. Hopefully that will turn the tide on the turkey-shooting crowd! ------------------
Taking it easy on the machine for a while. IP: Logged |
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