posted 01-06- 10:06 PM            

Zoy brought up the idea of squads meeting and flying in SDOE. Sounds like retro-mid 1999!

Recall guys, we had large groups flying - we even have (had?) a pretty nice SDOE squad vs. squad ladder (http://fly.to/AoW). A few people worked hard on this, and tried to get people into ACM in SDOE. It didn't catch on. Why not?

Well, I think Siggi has part of the answer - the ground unit bug is a major problem - as are other significant bugs like the ground unit bug (hey, if Falcon 4 can tranfer tons of ground objects to all players, why can't SDOE?).

However, if I may, let me step back and compare the flying I've been doing since SDOE, and share why I'm not flying SDOE like I used to (heck, I bought SDOE the very first day it came out, and flew it online just about every day through September - wrote many missions specifically designed for squad vs. squad flights, etc.).

I've been flying Ace's High and Falcon 4 mostly, since September (the time of the first Fighter Squadron tournament). Both of them are really compelling and exciting.

Primarily what they have over SDOE is difficulty and "realism". Even with the improved FM's made for SDOE, the challenge of Ace's High and Falcon 4 goes way beyond SDOE.

I have been in some dogfights in Ace's High in which I actually believed for a short time that I was really flying - and had to use "every inch" of the plane to come out ahead, or alive. My squaddies and I have also been flying the Falcon 4 campaign online (now that it's fixed for online flights). I won't even go there - Falcon 4 is just in another league.

So what about SDOE? Well, SDOE could have been there now, and can get there still! But what has stopped it (and please don't anyone take offense at this), is that more attention has been placed to new planes and paint, rather than accurate flight models and ACM.

For a while, I thought we would get there back in the summer of 1999. Michael had given a small group of a "beta" of the code that gave more physics information about the planes/flight, and many people went very far with this. However, we were never given the tools or the answers required to really make the flight model realistic and challenging from an ACM standpoint. Back then I thought this was a shame, and I still do.

Knowing a bit about physics, I went and gathered texts, reports, etc. on the A/C - I even requested a complex code to study 3D airfoil dynamics to help support the effort for a more accurate flight model.

But none of this effort seemed to go anywhere. I tried to work with the tools we had, but really, it was like trying to find the physics "needles in a haystack". All we needed was some documentation and/or code to understand what was in SDOE, so we could make suggestions on how to improve it.

I'm still convinced that SDOE has a better FM skeleton than Ace's High or Falcon 4. But SDOE won't ever match these other sims without a concerted effort of people with the correct tools.

Well, having said that, know that I still think SDOE is a great sim and I hope it will become "the" flight sim for ACM in the future. But for now, the main interest seems to be building models - which is fine. But people more interested in ACM will probably migrate in and out.

=Best of luck to SDOE!

=Hedgehog
=Screamin' Blue Messiahs http://sbm.warbirds.org

p.s. At the end of last year, I polled the SBMs and asked them what was their favorite flight sim experience of the year. There was a common answer - the SDOE Tournament. For me, it was my favorite because it actually "meant something" to do well in. The ACM and especially wingman discipline used was just superb and very exciting.

posted 01-07- 02:43 AM               

I was just thinking about you. I hope you are well

In some respects I agree with you. And I can understand why some have gone on to other sims. No worries. But just so you know, people have been working hard on making udates to FM and DM in SDOE. While the Contest has has held up some of the progress, the work is still getting done.

Also, MH has been working hard as well to get out a patch that will hopefully correct the online damage issues. I do truly hope that includes the ground bug.

What will come of this work, we will have to see. Good I hope. When that stuff gets done, pershaps people will return and enjoy SDOE.

As for the online play I was thinking about, is mainly to try get the people who still enjoy SDOE back into the air. Till recently the servers have been pretty dead For those who missed the tourney it was truly a shinning moment in SDOE history and I hope it returns.

This sim might be a tinkerers' game, but at the heart of the sim I think with a few minor issues being worked out, that the online ACM can be moved up a notch or two.

For me personaly, I enjoy painting the A/C, trying to make new things as well taking part in some tactical group type play. So SDOE fits me well. I think we may suprised in the near future as the sim might be finally as advertised. Well ok, maybe not Ultra Realistic but damn close. Also lets keep in mind this is the first OP sim and the following OP sims can only get better. Building on what has been done here with SDOE.

Let me thank you again HH for turning
me on to online simming Thanks

Take care Hedgehog, you come back now ya hear! I think Tailslide is missing his squadies

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Zoycite {GS}
GUNSLINGERS

visit The War Paint Factory

posted 01-07- 02:49 AM               

Yes, we sure used to have a blast with some of the missions that you created. Some of them really got the ol' adrenaline going.

.... "can I make it? Can I ... ah shit! They got me"....

hope to see you around sometime.

posted 01-07- 11:27 AM               

Yes there has been great emphasis put on paint schemes and turning out planes that are Spits or FW's in disguise.

However, Plane Pack 5.3 will correct several of these problems. The FM boys have been working overtime to get the FM of each a/c correct. This will mean better ACM and people will have to learn how to fly each plane type in combat correctly.

After PP5.3 is released the Damage Model project will finalize their work. This will make a huge difference in who can shot down who and how quickly.

MH's patch is due out soon and that will mean the damage bug problem should be laid to rest.

When these 3 are done, no sim will be able to touch it!

HH you interested in doing shows at 'Jade's Place?' I have experience as a booking agent.

------------------
Kopper

Fortunae Nihil
(Nothing to Chance)
OPPs Making SDOE a Dangerous place.
One plane at a time.

posted 01-07- 11:52 AM            

I'm really looking forward to the new pack with updated FMs and the skins that accompany it. I play all the WW2 sims on and offline but there is a viceral reaction to SDOE that keeps telling me this sim is on the brink of something spectacular

I am a bit confused on one issue though that maybe you can help me out with.

My understanding is you are working close with MH as you and others burn the midnight oil on the new pack. The question comes in when I see MH posting up he is working on a flight dynamic problem for v67. Does this mean that a new planepack will have to be constructed once another bug is killed? Are the FMs you are working on independant of what comes out in the form of beta patches that address FM bugs? I get the impression that the plane packs and beta releases are travelling along on parallel lines. I guess I'm asking when they will meet (If they haven't already).

posted 01-07- 12:16 PM            

I agree with you on the points you bring up. One other thing I think that needs to be thrown into the "realism" debate is the crutches available to pilots online. I see alot of players wanting realism this and realism that but more times than not when I fly online I see HUDs enabled, targets on maps enabled and other crutches that really detract from the enviroment that SDOE offers. ACM is definately on the top of the list in my humble opinion, however, even the best FMs and SA in the world can be easily compromised by a couple of crutches.

posted 01-07- 06:47 PM               

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Cheers!
Jaguar
www.fshangar.com

posted 01-07- 07:18 PM               

Apeboy,

Hud off is definately better, but with the targets on the map it kinda of ruins it. That should be a host option aswell. When hud is off, it'd be nice if Padlock didnt work behind terrain and clouds too.

Hmm, I suppose we can wish list the crap out of this game. So lets take it one step at a time and see what happens. I'm sure not everyone will be happy but its start

------------------
Zoycite {GS}
GUNSLINGERS

visit The War Paint Factory

posted 01-07- 09:55 PM               

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Zoycite {GS}
GUNSLINGERS

visit The War Paint Factory

posted 01-08- 12:10 AM            

A simple hot key to look down at your instruments, say, 0 on your keypad is all you need to check. These things weren't flown with HUDs in their original state. In fact, very, very few planes today have HUDs. HUDs are a crutch in that they provide constant attitude, speed and G info without having to refocus on panel, constantly maintaining visual on your target.

As far as finding cons without a map, um, thats kinda part of it in my book (everyone screams immersion then puts their plane in a time warp to modern tech). Next time you go to your local GA (General Aviation) airport sit for a sec and you'll see planes ARE hard to see at 2 miles, let alone ID them.

Hate to come across as a grognard but really, this is WW2 SDOE, not F-18 wonderjet. Trust me, learn to fly without the HUD or the map, you'll love it once you are used to it. You'll find situational awareness and ACM actually mean something from the second the gear comes up. You don't know where he is at, you hope you have enough alt, you hope you see him first, you rely on your craft's strong points vs his craft's weak ones and make sure you fight your fight, not his. You'll understand why soooo many of us complain about FMs.

Take a few minutes and download the Aces High beta over at www.hitechcreations.com. Log on (still free beta) and fly without all this stuff and no external views. They still have icons at certain ranges but you are forced to fly without all that other stuff.

Trust Me

Apeboy

posted 01-08- 01:17 AM               

Werner