posted 12-17- 08:01 PM               

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Zoycite {GS}
GUNSLINGERS

visit The War Paint Factory

posted 12-20- 03:15 AM               

Have you guys tried Aces High? I foresee this become the new benchmark of online sims. AH is in free beta right now, don't miss it!

www.hitechcreations.com

Camo

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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34

posted 12-20- 04:51 AM               

"Have you guys tried Aces High? I foresee this become the new benchmark of online sims. AH is in free beta right now, don't miss it!"

Well I guess maybe for online only but when i tried it i thought it looked and ran like crap. and i visited the forum and all kinds of people were complaining how the FM on some planes were messed.

posted 12-20- 08:45 AM               

The FM's in AH are excellent. What the people complain in the forums are minor details. You wont find that realistic FM's anywhere, except maybe in WB. Well, SDOE is pretty close too

Graphics in AH are ok. Of course nothing near SDOE, but decent. That is not the point however, the point is that AH is almost as real as it gets. Massive multiplayer, great FM - what else do you need?

I really recommend it guys. The arena supports up to 200 players, and there's usually over 50 people there in the evenings. 30+ player furballs are simply chaotic!

The current planeset:

Bf 109 G-10
FW 190 A-8
P-51D
Spit IXC
N1K George
Macchi c.205
F4U-1D
B-17
C-47

Most planes have many different loadout options. (Gun pods, bombs, drop tanks...)

The download is only about 5megs, less than the SDOE planepack! Try it out, I dare you!

If you have any of that fighter pilot blood in your veins, you'll be hooked!

www.hitechcreations.com

Camo

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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34

posted 12-20- 11:03 AM               

I found FA2 on full realism to be very decent. Stalls/spins, flap and gear damage, recoil, torque, wind, compressibility, the pilots even start to black out at high alt if you forget to use oxygene.

posted 12-20- 01:18 PM               

As for Aces High you should remember that it is still in BETA and therefore is incomplete. I think the FM is shaping up well considering it is still pretty much 'ruffed in' to use Pyro's words.From what I understand the individual planes FM's are being worked as I speak (well type!).

I do like the wiew system but if there is one area that could do with improvement I think it is the cockpit art. Not so much the instruments but the actual shapes of them. Some are quite poor.I hope this is something that is adressed in futre releases.

Still after Woodpanels efforts one is rather spoiled.

Cheers

posted 12-20- 07:25 PM               

Ok i understand its beta and that stuff is being worked on all the time. Thats cool, but i don't understand why it has worse graphics then SDOE and the FPS is a dog
I hit 60fps in SDOE and only like 30 in AH and thats offline.

Oh and padlock view in massivly multiplayer enviroments only destroys your SA

It might do that but you should at least have the choice to use it if you choose too. some of the people on that forum were complaining that it would be cheating.
which is total bullshit if its done properly

posted 12-21- 01:51 AM               

TS

posted 12-21- 05:47 PM               

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and my opinion is that a pilot that can only look 4 or 8 directions is _unrealistic_ the view system is really hurting.. I was lucky enough to fly some cold guns dogfights for real and the sensation and hand-eye movement was exactly like padlock view, it all felt like I had done it before.. I even managed to fight a retired fighter pilot to a draw : ) If warbirds had a padlock view and charged a reasonable rate, I would still be there, as it is it bears little resemblance to being in a dogfight for me.

TS

posted 12-21- 06:58 PM            

Definatly agree with you on the credit card bill front so for that reason alone i only fly WB in head to head but i do fly and enjoy the aces high free beta.

Being a pilot do you believe that AH and WB have higher fidelity models than SDOE and FA and is it only the View system which puts you off?

I happen to disagree with the realism aspect of the padlock as i think it is fundamentally flawed.

I know how you have come to the conclusion about padlock being realistic though. As in real life you move your head and eyes easily and intuitavly to track a con with no effort and with a padlock you track a con with no effort and when you start using keys you fumble around and can't track the con like in real life hence form the opinion of it being unrealistic.

posted 12-21- 07:24 PM               

BOB Reread this line Tailslide used above:

"I have a button to toggle padlock off and on with my stick, and I can use the hat to glance around. My SA is just fine thanks very much = )
TS"

Now you say:

"Now recreate this situation in a sim first with view keys a la WB with the keys again you will lose the con under bodywork and then instinctivly (if you are used to snap views) switch to the view in which you estimtate he will come out again he has reversed doesn't appear where you expect and shots you down."

Is it just me or did he say above, that he turns on and off padlock with a button on his stick and uses his hat to look around?
The hat IS his snap views, he is still used to snap views or he wouldn't have good SA and hence he wouldn't be the guy that everyone strives to shoot down. I think it is well know at least in the SDOE community that he is an exceptional pilot, and the first time I shoot him down I will be highly proud of myself and I think rightly so.

You then go on to say:

"Now with a padlock system either the lock is broken or it continues to track despite you not being able to see him and his clever reversal will be followed and you will not be suprised and not die hence unlike the realife situation, the computer has given you an artificial advantage. "

That is very true if the padlock acts like the one in SDOE then it is an artificial advantage in some respects.

The padlock in SDOE is fundamentaly flawed and I hope it gets fixed some day.

But, if the padlock can be correctly designed and implemented. It will not only become as natural as turning your head but also widely accepted and not viewed as a cheat as it is now.

If it was correct it would break the lock and you would have to reaquire target manualy with your beloved snap views through the use of a hat, and then you apply the padlock again.

I'm pretty sure (i haven't tried yet but i will next time i play) that while padlocked you can still use your snap views, and that would mean that you would still have a high level of SA.

Of coarse when you let off the snap the padlock should ONLY return your head to the last position it saw and reaquire only if the target is fully and easily visible.

A correctly designed and implemented padlock is crucial to this whole thing and as of yet has still not been used in a game in the way I envision it should. (not that I am the one who should nessasarly be designing it, these are just my opinion on how it should be)

My last thought on this subject is. When head tracking glasses become avalible to the average sim player will you complain that the ability it gives oppenent is cheating cause he can look around and track like he would be able to in a real aircraft? Or will you ask for a fair and realistick padlock to be implemented in your fav sim until you too can afford that amazing technology?

posted 12-21- 08:05 PM               

I'd have to sit down with a stopwatch and do exhaustive tests before I could say if warbirds is more accurate than FA. I suspect warbirds is more accurate stats-wise because it's been around so long, but at least in FA1.5 they put a lot of work into the planes so that all the traditional strengths and weaknesses were there. I'm hoping none of this has been lost in V2. The p51 could shallow dive the best due to it's laminar flow, the 109 could out-climb, some combat flaps and the p38 could turn quite well, the spitfire was fast but slow to accelerate, spins are easier up high where the air is thin, different aircraft types have different spin characteristics, etc. I think you reach a point where you are splitting hairs over minor points and you need to start looking at other major areas like damage model (SDOE), modelling ground war (FA2), close air support, clouds and overcast (the only sim I've seen do _really_ thick cloud cover well is "Nations" of all things) Hiding in clouds was a real tactic used a lot and it's totally absent in almost every sim. I get a real thrill out of hitting the tanks in FA2 before they capture my cities, or selectively strafing enemy tanks in a pitched tank battle, trying to stop enemy planes from doing the same. I hope they add ground troops and ships next version!

Most of the planes are more accurate in FA2 and warbirds than SDOE because only a precious few have been really through the ringer, tested and adjusted, and even those few are not out in a plane pack yet. But the great way that SDOE planes are simulated means that when the planes do have a lot of work put into them they fly really convincingly. You shoot off a stabilizer, you bend a wing, the plane flies differently. Lots of different levels of departure, from a quick yank flipping the plane upside down, to gentle power off spins, to violent uncontrollable power-on spins. The 190 drops a wing with little warning while the p51 gives you lots of warning. That's pretty deep. In these areas SDOE excels but it has a couple major drawbacks in that compressibility is not modelled well and there is no speed limit for flaps.

My old thrustmaster stick had a 4 position hat switch, my new stick has a 8 way switch. There may be 27 views but I see 8 of them, and for me this is one case where harder does not equal realistic. Again a personal preference, to each his own. I always roll my plane to keep my opponent in view so it's not really a big issue for me but the auto-target features in SDOE and FA2 bug me. FA2 is supposed to be adding a padlock that breaks off when the enemy goes under your plane. Nations simulates this quite nicely plus you can only padlock planes that are in your sights ! I think it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater saying "we'll never implement padlock" instead of saying "we'll implement a realistic padlock". Some day a sim will do this, but until then I prefer the most realistic padlock view that is available. Flying with hat views and padlock views is a totally different skill. So is flying with the keyboard but I don't want to learn that either.

TS

posted 12-22- 02:34 PM               

I was referring to spitfire vs 109 fights which is something I enjoyed quite a bit. The 109G had a climb rate of 4560 fpm while the spitfire IX has 4150 fpm, it's all relative I suppose. The spit couldn't dive with the 190 or even the p51 so it took a lot longer to get up to speed in a chase.

Here's a quote on the p51 stalls:

"With empty fuselage tank, slight tail buffeting occurrs about threee to four miles per hour above the stall, at which the right wing drops gently. With the fuselage tank full or half full, there is no buffeting... but a series of stick reversals occurs just above stalling speed; at the stall the right wing drops sharply and unless immediate recovery action is taken, a spin may develop.
The control column must be pushed forward for recovery. The aircraft sinks rapidly as stalling speed is approached. If the control column is held back at the stall, a wing will drop very rapidly..."

The 190 did not display nearly as much warning. It's wingtips were inflexible compared to other planes causing it to have a tendancy to tip stall.

posted 12-22- 03:51 PM               

--
The stalling speed ofthe FW190A-4 in clean configuration was127mph and the stall came on suddenly and without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that the aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a G-Stall in a tight turn, it would flick out onto the opposite bank and an incipient spin was the inevitable outcome if the pilot did not have his wits about him.

-- British Test Pilot Eric Brown, who flew a captured example

The figure of 127mph was the indicated airspeed. The true air speed would be a good deal more in the thin air at high altitude. Stalling speedin a 6g turn would be 311mph true airspeed at sea level. The nature of the high-speed stall was embarassing enough at high altitude; at low level, where there was insufficient room to recover, it could be lethal, as many German pilots found to their cost. Consequently it constrained many from hard maneuvers near the ground.

posted 12-22- 08:02 PM               

You forgot to mention that the spit was not a combat ready plane and reached Mach 0.91 in an uncontrollable dive, causing damage to the engine (I heard gossip about it actually melting the propeller shaft). Although the maximum speed it reached in a dive was faster than any other WW2 plane that I know of, it took longer to accelerate in the dive than some planes.

If you reread the comment on the 190, he was talking about clean stall in level flight happening without warning and almost flipping the plane upside down. The part about the G-stall causing spin is a seperate comment made after the first statement. You are reading the two comments together as one.

I'm curious, does the current warbirds model the p51 as having harsher spin characteristics than the 190?

I think we are just proving my point about splitting hairs.. what difference does it make if one sim is correct to three decimal places instead of two if there are HUGE aspects of air war completely missing from the game? These days simulations are about more than turning in circles with other planes. I love the mission format of SDOE, if really gives the battles focus and a purpose. Same with the tanks and trains in FA2 and of course the padlock views. Big neverending furballs may have happened in real life but not to the extent I see them in arena sims, and this too detracts from the realism. I think we're restating the same points over and over.

TS

PS - Bob, it's obvious you are also an avid stats buff. Are you interested in advising what planes need to be changed in SDOE or do you still play SDOE?

posted 12-23- 02:47 AM               

k boys slow down I stayed away from the board for 24 hours and you go crazy LOL

you guys do seem to be splitting hairs

you are both better jugdes of FM then me any day

i will say this FM is important VERY important

but there is more to a game then FM
like
DM
bombers
ground movement
ground pounding and straifing
large games
not every fight was a dog fight
historical correctness

and much much more

i think alot of the hard core guys forget all that and just focus on the FM

bob u said to me (and BTW i am SPanky my roomate is Mad Dog we share a computer and name on this board and put spanky or mad dog at the top)

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Put it this way if you are locked on to 1 target with padlock it is a lot easier to neglect your SA as with snap views it is just a key press away, agreed though it doesn't have to decrease your SA but it is so easy to let it. You said yourself "I haven't tried snap views while in padlock" this indicates you don't check six every 5 seconds in a multi bogie enviroment so you have let the padlock digrade your SA.
----------------------------------

actually i don't have a decreased SA cause i don't use padlock

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By head tracking glasses I assume you mean some sort of VR headset as a headset which just changed the view you saw when you moved your head as in the latter were the case checking 6 would mean looking behind you so you can't see the screen!!!
-----------------------------------

you wouldn't have a screen man checking your six would be just like real life
the computer would know you turned your head and change the info on the screeen on the fly
it would have to be hard coded in the game

the monitors are 2 tiny screens in the glasses to give you not only a stero view but also track all head movement on the fly
when they come out in force using snap views will be a thing of the past so will padlock

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I would welcome the addition of a VR headset though as it would be the human looking not the computer and it would only afford the user a small advantage but not an artificial advantage as people who only use snap views can track cons almost as if they were moving their head, it really does become second nature.
----------------------------------

i use only snap views i think the glasses will be a huge advatage

---------------------------------------
About padlock being implemented properly, I don't think it can ever be implemented realistically until a computer can read your mind. I will again give an examples to illistrate.
Eg 1
You are tracking a green plane on your screen and as it moves into a position where you are looking at the ground the plane becomes quite difficult to see one player with keen eyes will keep his eye on the con and continue to track him while the other will lose him against the background but with the padlock this situation is impossible to achieve as it cannot differentiate between two diferent players.
-----------------------------------

i see what you mean about losing the target Unfortunatly the padlock would have to make some assumptions based on how big the profile is and what the color diffs are bettween the plane and background

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Eg 2
An enemy is sneaking up on your six, you are completly oblivious but you hit the padlock button and your head snaps round to see the con your saved despite not seeing the con using your SA. How will the computer ever know what planes you have and haven't seen and therefore if you are allowed a lock as you in realife can not track a target you haven't seen.
----------------------------

you would have to hit padlock while you have the boggy in a certain area
say the center ring of you your screen

the computer would never lock on to a target you couldn't see EI your six

you would have to track him to the front so the computer knows who you want to track
you would have no lock on closest target like in SDOE

while we are on this how does the AI track you? can he see all dirrections? can he track over ipossible conditions? is he all knowing all seeing? is he cheating?

---------------------------------
P.S. I wasn't casting asspertions on tailslides experience or talent as real or virtual pilot.
----------------------------------

i know i was just saying that it doesn't nessacarily reduce your SA if you know what you are doing and using tail as my example

do you fly SDOE bob we would love you help fixing the planes

posted 12-23- 02:51 AM               

back again i forgot somthing and sorry bout all the spelling

hehe

What we need WHAT WE REALLY NEED

ARE YOU LISTING JOYSTICK COMPANYS?

A FREAKING ANOLOG HAT!!!

sorry for yelling guys but its insane that there isn't one

there is one i think but its on a crappy gravis stick

if you need more explanation on why we need it and how it would work let me know

posted 12-29- 08:26 AM            

First tailslide :
I'll summise my thoughts on the spit acceleration and p51 stall.

The spit does accelerate well but it's dive acceleration is not the greatest (the thing about a spit reaching mach 0.91 was more of an intresting fact than saying the spit did have good dive acceleration)

About the P51 stall i was not suggesting it was worse than the FW (i don't know either way) I have in accounts i've read of it though heard it had a quite nasty accelerated stall especially at higher fuel loads. In warbirds the 51 stall isn't as bad as the FW but it has been a matter of debate and is believed by many to be incorrect (not that it is better than the FW but because it is relativley gentle) the WB FW on the other hand has a nasty tendancy to snap roll. Unfortunatly no "game" sim at the moment uses tools like computational fluid dynamics software and also the computers we use aren't powerfull enough to calculate the effects in post stall regieme in real time (they use pre calculated curves instead i hear) So any flight sims spin model will be an approximation, some are obviously better than others. These approximations apply to the whole FM but are much more noticable post stall where strange unpredictable things happen.

On another point when i was acusing you of deciet it wasn't an attack it just that when you are a arguing a debatable point you must present your evidence in a favourable light and i was just pointing out this favouravble light to make my arguments look better.

This argument will probably go round in circles for ever so we might as well agree to disagree.

Spanky and tailslide :

Ok back to the points padlock and the merits of various sims.

First on padlock i just don't think it is a solution as the computer does the looking for you. I think the best alternative at the moment is view keys and also some people perfer looking with the mouse, which is better is really down to the individual. I think padlock has come about due to bad view snap systems and people just get use to it and want to keep it.

Also i believe some sort glasses device would be excellent and would be andvantage but not as much as an advantage as someone with top quality stick, throttle and rudder pedals over someone with a cheap 2 button joystick.

Another point about view systems i personally just use the keypad and have my left hand almost constantly on it just my personal method i wouls suggest it to people just starting using the views as using hats can lead to neglecting some views (though you can cover most views with 2 8 way hats, 1 4 way hat isn't really worth using IMHO)

Now to why am i posting on this board and my opinions on various sims.

Well as you could guess my favourite sims are of the online variety like WB/AH. I did though see SDOE for a £9 ($12-$13) in my local EB so i bought it. I got home installed it and got the 1.5 patch. I started playing it and to be honest was a bit dissapointed but this happens everytime i play a new sim at this point i thought i go look at the websites and message boards see what other people thought but being a loud mouth i jmust couldn't resist posting.

posted 12-29- 09:32 AM            

I haven't to be honest had much chance to play this so am just at the stage where i am getting a feel for the game obviously in sim like this much of the enjyment comes from the campegin aspects which i can't at this stage comment on
i will talk about the fundamentals underpinning each game as without these the game is a dud. I apolagize for when i critisize something which is easily cured i just don't know how yet.
I ' ll start with flight models. The more realistic the better for me but having said that it is not the deciding factor as long as the flight model is challenging and exhibits enough aspects of correct flight so that real life princapls of ACM can be applied and have them work I think SDOE achieves this criteria but i still have a couple of gripes with it which slightly lessens the enjoyment. First i think the planes hold energy a bit to well i.e. i should lose speed and manuverability and subsequently stall out a bit quicker than i do. Also spins are a bit to hard to produce the planes just seem to wallow. This doesn't make the flight model bad it just means you have a bit more margin of error when flying on the ragged edge. There are a few small errors i noticed nothing significant like ailerons don't reverse just after stall. The AH/WB flight models just have this extra bit of detail which elivates them above SDOE in this area but of course a flight model on it's own doesn't make a sim. Damage modelling in the sim is excellent with planes with pieces flying of them looking really nice.
The other fundamentals all go towards feel (this is why i am dissapointed with all new sims i play because they don't have the feel i am use to) Firstly the graphics in SDOE are good which helps the immersion the terrains look intresting and varied the plane models themselves look nice. The cockpit graphics are reasonable (for 3D cockpits ).
The viewing system is better than most sims with padlock but it lacks the 1 press diagonal views (on the 7,9,3,1 keys) and also those diagonal up views (this though maybe due to my keyboard not handling 3 key chords i.e. up left would be 4+8+5 but it doesn't work) A problem i find with the cockpits themselves as i cannot see the instuments and have a decent view at the same time on most planes and also on the spitfire the direct 6 view is right into the headrest which is odd but i suspect adjustable.
SDOE is a good game with many good points and a few niggles the problem for me is it is primarily a mission based offline sim with AI opponents which doesn't appeal to me as much it has online capabilites but you only get a small number of players online and only at certain times. A final point the plane selection to me seems a bit odd amd goes from the early 1941 spit 5 to the Me262 which entered service in 1944 but only had more than a handful of planes in early '45. This is not such a big issue offline but online it is quite important. A period should have been picked and competative planes from that era choosen. My suggestion if you have the Me 262 you need to choose late '44 early '45 and have spit 14 (instead of 5) Fw 190 d9 (instead of A series) Tempest 5 (instead of typhoon) p51d and p38 L (instead of 38J)

I would like to help with SDOE plane packs and other things unfortunatly at this moment i just don't have the time. (you've got time to write pages and pages on message boards though )

FA2

posted 12-29- 10:05 AM            

Tailslide mentioned endless furballing in arenas and this is a problem to some extent due to some people just taking off and heading for the nearest furball while fun intially the novelty soon wares off and you need to look for somthing extra. This can be achieved but i would like to see the sims enocurage a different approach more often I will talk about this more specifically for each sims. To get more out of these sims though you need to take advantage of stratergies on offer, do some escorting arrange some raids, make some fighter sweeps in formation. Most of all though join a squad and take part in scenario's. The squad will have nights where you all fly together and do try to achieve strategic objectives which is certainly is a notch above normal arena play. Scenario's are in my opinion are the best experience in flights sims. Around 300 people in an arena all with mission plans everybody vital in order to achieve victory conditions, these experiences are frankly unparralled in computer games. Every game though i believe would be well served by putting measures in to amke normal arena play more focused on achieving a team goal rather than furballing.

I will say this before i comment though i do not play WB online it is too expensive but i do play a WB head to head ladder which is rewarding experience and really helps you when you do play in the arenas as it is frustrating to fly around for 10 mins only to get shot down when you see a con being on a ladder gives you the experience to shoot down the person you see and not get frustrated by waiting a long time between contacts only to get shot down and you don't learn very quickly. Up untill AH came out i was getting my online fix with Air warrior 3.

posted 12-29- 10:46 AM               

Great stuff bob hopefully all the stuff you mention will be addressed in the future specialy in SDOP.

Keep it up

posted 12-29- 10:52 AM            

Warbirds
Great flight model and damage model , i would say the damage model is a bit more detailed than SDOE but warbirds doesn't have the same graphical effects as SDOE. The graphics aren't as good as SDOE but aren't far off apart from the cockpits which look lovely. I hear the stratergy model isn't very detailed.

posted 12-29- 03:41 PM               

Open Plane does not use a table based FM but uses the same or similar method to AH,WB and WWII online: i.e model individual components/aerofoils,inertia forces etc .This produces a much more accurate FM as the aircraft tend to behave like they do for real.

My Father used to have a PPL a few years back and was impressed with SDOE's flight modelling. Apart from lack of stall/spin characteristics it's a step in the right direction.

One thing none of the other sims have at the moment is realistic ground handling. This is modelled very well in SDOE although some may say a bit to well!

As far as FAII, well I've tried it and it's alot better than the previuos effort but I will not be paying to play it.AH looks the winner for me and I wait with baited breath for WB 3.0.

Cheers

Bradburger

posted 12-29- 04:26 PM               

From the complaints I see, it sounds to me like people are playing FA2 on some relaxed realism setting. Try hosting a private game with all the settings cranked to max.

Happy Holidays !